Why Did Jesus Have To Die? In this episode, the group discusses whether Jesus Christ actually had to die to fulfill the atonement for our sins and the significance of His sacrifice on the cross.
References:
Tim Keller, author
John Stott – “The Cross of Christ”
Fleming Rutledge – “The Crucifixion”
Thomas C. Oden – “Classic Christianity”
View more from Where We Begin.
Transcript – Why Did Jesus Have To Die?
00:00:00:16 – 00:00:22:18
Derek
“Why did Jesus have to die?” Today on Where We Begin.
00:00:22:18 – 00:00:34:01
Derek
Hey, guys, welcome back to Where We Begin, a podcast where we discuss some of the toughest objections to Christianity. I’m your host, once again, Derek Caldwell. And
00:00:34:01 – 00:00:34:09
Alycia
Derek Caldwell
00:00:34:12 – 00:00:36:09
Derek
Joined – yup, the whole.
00:00:37:03 – 00:00:37:15
Xandra
The whole name this time.
00:00:37:15 – 00:00:38:13
Derek
Derek Allen Caldwell
00:00:38:13 – 00:00:42:07
Lou
It changes up each time. Sometimes it’s Derek. Sometimes it’s Derek Caldwell.
00:00:42:07 – 00:00:42:15
Xandra
Sometimes it’s me!
00:00:42:20 – 00:00:43:13
Alycia
Teddy Bear.
00:00:43:13 – 00:00:48:10
Lou
Then it’s all of us but it’s like, all of our names like, fully. Or it’s just the nickname.
00:00:49:01 – 00:00:50:05
Xandra
Mr. Dr. Reverend.
00:00:50:06 – 00:00:51:02
Alycia
What will you call Lou today?
00:00:51:07 – 00:01:10:15
Derek
I’m very spontaneous and hard to nail down. And yeah, that keeps things exciting. And everyone’s enjoying this conversation, I’m sure at home. Anyway, we’ve got Alycia Wood, Lou Phillips, and Xandra Carroll. Carroll. I think I got that correct.
00:01:10:22 – 00:01:11:12
Xandra
It’s hard.
00:01:11:17 – 00:01:24:09
Derek
How do you pronounce it? Carroll. OK. I wanted to start off today, though first. Typically, we try to jump into the question quickly, but I want to humanize the three of you.
00:01:25:13 – 00:01:26:15
Xandra
Oh, we need help.
00:01:26:16 – 00:01:30:05
Lou
As if we weren’t human before. What are we doing?
00:01:30:14 – 00:01:33:20
Xandra
Don’t tell them I’m actually a robot, please.
00:01:35:09 – 00:01:57:01
Derek
No, but. So let’s get – let’s let people learn a little bit more about you. This is one of those island questions. Just like an icebreaker. If you were stuck on a desert island and you can only take one book. You can’t say the Bible. What book would you take because we all love books.
00:01:57:01 – 00:01:57:18
Lou
“The Great Divorce.”
00:02:00:09 – 00:02:00:23
Derek
“The Great Divorce?”
00:02:00:23 – 00:02:02:22
Lou
That’s my answer, yeah. C.S. Lewis, “The Great Divorce.”
00:02:03:12 – 00:02:11:06
Alycia
Well, I guess if I’m stuck on an island, I’m going to bring Philip Yancy’s “Disappointment with God” and that’s all I’m taking with me.
00:02:11:07 – 00:02:14:11
Derek
You’re stuck on an island and you’re disappointed with God? Boy, we are.
00:02:14:18 – 00:02:15:15
Alycia
Here I am, God.
00:02:15:15 – 00:02:17:01
Derek
We are a spoiled generation.
00:02:17:07 – 00:02:19:19
Xandra
Can I bring a book that comes in three volumes?
00:02:20:14 – 00:02:21:04
Derek
Yes.
00:02:21:15 – 00:02:34:20
Xandra
I would take this amazing set of the greatest poetry in the world. It’s a three-volume set and it’s amazing because when you’re stuck on an island. Poetry helps. I’m pretty sure it would help.
00:02:35:03 – 00:02:36:15
Derek
Yeah, it’s good to have beauty there.
00:02:36:16 – 00:02:37:20
Xandra
What would you take, Derek?
00:02:38:03 – 00:02:40:12
Alycia
Oh, Bonhoeffer’s…
00:02:40:16 – 00:02:50:22
Derek
No, no, no. I would take the Bible. I would. I would take the Bible. I would never let anyone tell me I couldn’t take the Bible. That’s where. That’s where my faith and your faith, I think, is very different.
00:02:50:23 – 00:02:52:14
Xandra
How pharisaical of you.
00:02:52:14 – 00:02:57:11
Derek
Anyway. No, it would be. Yeah, it would probably be Bonhoeffer.
00:02:57:14 – 00:02:58:13
Lou
“Life Together?”
00:02:59:04 – 00:03:00:05
Xandra
Bonhoeffer, all the way.
00:03:00:06 – 00:03:01:21
Alycia
Exactly.
00:03:01:21 – 00:03:02:11
Derek
“Discipleship.”
00:03:02:11 – 00:03:03:08
Alycia
“The Cost of Discipleship?”
00:03:03:10 – 00:03:20:22
Derek
Because I would really need to, yeah, be reminded every day of like, OK, I’m still a disciple. Don’t do dumb things here because you’re angry. Yeah, that would be it. Great. Well, good. I know a little bit more about you now.
00:03:21:05 – 00:03:22:13
Xandra
Do we seem more human now?
00:03:23:02 – 00:04:43:05
Derek
Um, strangely enough, no. But anyway, today’s question, I think, is a – I mean, another really, really good one. We’re talking essentially about the atonement or sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. And let’s start it like this because even though this culture has been sort of saturated in Christianity, in the West, it’s still a very strange thing to think about this, the sacrifice thing and sometimes maybe other notions get in there. But I want to start off. Here is the – essentially the main question we’re answering. Jesus forgives a sinner on the cross before his death. God even says multiple times in the Old Testament, he doesn’t enjoy their sacrifices. He desires mercy and not sacrifice. So the question is, “Why did Jesus have to die?” Why is that the mode that saves us? Why does God need blood to forgive us of sins? So we want to start off with just that.
00:04:45:11 – 00:04:59:00
Lou
Some would say he didn’t have to. I disagree. But I’m just like, yes, some theologians argue, no, that wasn’t necessary or have to. But I find that problematic.
00:04:59:11 – 00:05:06:16
Derek
So anyone who would take the position, right now, actually Jesus did have to die.
00:05:06:18 – 00:05:07:01
Lou
Yeah.
00:05:08:21 – 00:05:10:19
Derek
I don’t know who wants to start that. Alycia, you can take or
00:05:10:21 – 00:06:50:16
Lou
Oh, sorry, I mean, I just – starting with scripture, I mean, Christ literally pleads, if there’s any other way. Surely. If they’re really – now, why was it set up that way? I mean, I think when it comes down to like, what is the difference between me now and eternity? It’s death. Death is the one great enemy of life. And that is, I mean, this is why all the questions that we have, like when you think of all the questions we’re wrestling with as Christians, it often comes down to the lived experience because life matters. And so when life ceases to exist, that matters. And so death. It’s not just this arbitrary like, oh, God’s like, well, I could have just said in light of sin, now your face will grow three times. Like, there’s still the logic behind that I think actually is profoundly beautiful. I don’t think it’s just like heinously, oh my gosh, why does it have to be sacrifice and death? Well, in light of the lived experience, that makes the most logical sense as to what would be the biggest form of payment. Because that’s actually what it is, right? This is what we’re talking about. It’s like, what did it cost God to forgive us of our sin, of our betrayal of him? Because forgiveness always costs something. It is never. It may be free to someone else, but to the person giving it, it is always very costly. And the question for Christianity is, what did it cost God? Well, according to God, including Christianity. It’s God himself. God’s only son. That’s as profound. Like, I know it’s like trippy to think of, but I think it was necessary in light of what scripture actually says.
00:06:51:07 – 00:06:54:00
Derek
Well, can we start at the beginning? Sorry, did you.
00:06:54:00 – 00:06:55:08
Alycia
No, it’s OK. I can wait.
00:06:56:00 – 00:07:29:23
Derek
Well, yeah, I want to start at the very beginning, though. Not so. I think that’s all true. But we can sort of jump into, you know, isn’t forgiveness beautiful? And they’re like, wait, but why? I mean, maybe we could define what life and death are. What sin ultimately is. Like, what got this ball rolling where something so terrible happened that God would have to give us? Like, what is there at the – in the beginning, you know, as Scripture would say. What goes on?
00:07:30:10 – 00:10:34:08
Alycia
Well, I guess I would say, first of all, I think this is why it’s important to look at – to not look at the cross as an isolated incident. There’s things that it’s connected with, whether it’s, you know, an Old Testament system or whether it’s, you know, the sins of mankind, right? So the idea being that, you know, God creates, man rebels against God, and now that a relationship with God is no longer what it was. And you know, Hebrews lets us know that without the shedding of blood, there is no like remission of sins. Like, in other words, blood is required for the sins and the things that humans have done. And without that, there is no restoration of relationship. And so I think we first have to go back to when you’re saying, you know, what even led to this is ultimately it’s God’s plan of restoring the relationship between his creation, his human creation that he once had and that he desires. But God cannot just forgive and still be a just judge. We would never – we would never go into a courtroom and say, you know, let’s say I stole something from Lou, and the judge just says, “Oh, Alycia, I just forgive you. Don’t worry about it.” And Lou would stand up and be like, What? So we would never call a judge just if he didn’t deal with the wrong that was done right. So God can’t just forgive and ignore. But I think the other thing, too, so hopefully that kind of answers a little of what you’re getting at Derek, but let’s go back to your first question. You know, like, you have to look through the Old Testament to understand this massive lead up to what was happening on the cross, right? And I think we have to look at the fact that there was the system. Like the idea of blood being shed for the sins of humanity is not new in the Gospels. Right? It’s been happening for centuries. It’s just that the blood that was shed was of an animal as opposed to of God, Himself. Of Jesus. So they were already familiar with the system. It was already set up. It was already happening where this day of atonement, this once a year, this animal would be sacrificed and the priest would go in behind the curtain essentially to, I guess you could say, to get as close to God as possible in this tabernacle and going behind that curtain and engage with God on behalf of the sins of humanity. You know, so this idea of animal death or shedding of blood for the sins of humanity was already carried through. And so Jesus is, you could say he is, the final one. That’s why we call him the lamb, right? One of the reasons he’s called the lamb, right? He is the final sacrifice. And so when you look at it in view of the whole larger story, it makes sense. It makes very little sense or much less sense. If you just look at it and you read it through the Gospels and you don’t connect the larger system that was at play here. And that’s what you see – you know, you don’t see Christians sacrificing today, right? There was a final lamb that was sacrificed. There’s no need to be doing any of that anymore.
00:10:37:10 – 00:10:38:01
Derek
Yeah.
00:10:38:01 – 00:12:51:02
Lou
I wanted to go back to Gen – because that’s where I took where you were going with that. Maybe I’m wrong. It’s this idea of like, why when we rebelled against God was the result death or like, why is that the answer? If we’re starting in Genesis and we just look from the beginning, here’s God the Alpha and the Omega before nothing outside of him is there, and he’s the author of Life. And again, we have to start thinking, what is the difference between life and death? Is death the absence of life or is life, the absence of death? Like, it only works one way, right? It’s like light and darkness. Like, life is the – I mean, God himself is the author of it all. And then there has to become – So when sin comes in, there’s this fracture and I just think at the end of Genesis 3, this is interesting, this is when he’s casting out Adam and Eve from the garden, he says, “Then the Lord said, “Behold, man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil.” And again, this is referring to becoming the arbiter of good and evil, becoming the one that says, no, this is what’s right and wrong for me. “Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” So it’s interesting to me that like it was actually a form of God’s grace to not live forever in the state that we’re in. And we never look at it that way. It’s like, no, no, I want to live forever. No, you don’t want to live forever in the state you’re in. You are a broken individual. Like, I think of my own frailties and frustrations and my own sinful desires. How often – Like, it is God’s mercy that we would not live in this state forever. And what is the – how do we get to that? How do we get back to the original, is really the question. And fascinatingly enough, even with Christianity, it’s not even just getting back to it, it’s surpassing the original because now we’re grafted into the family of God. How do we get back there? To me, again, when you look at the understanding between life and death, it makes sense that death is the result. Like that is what the cost – like, and blood representing death would be the thing that would get us back into that. That’s my thought. You don’t seem convinced. Do you have thoughts on it, Derek?
00:12:51:11 – 00:13:07:12
Derek
No, no, no. I think it’s – No, it’s I mean, it’s a very – there’s so much going on that I wish we had 8 hours to discuss all the themes. Everything that’s going – Yeah, stop watching this. Go get “The Cross of Christ.”
00:13:07:12 – 00:13:08:12
Lou
Yeah, yeah.
00:13:09:23 – 00:13:12:15
Derek
“The Crucifixion?”
00:13:12:23 – 00:13:14:22
Lou
Fleming Rutledge. I wish I could say I read through the whole thing.
00:13:15:04 – 00:13:22:04
Derek
Thomas Oden’s “Classical Christianity” has great stuff on it. But we’re here so we’re going to keep going.
00:13:23:05 – 00:13:23:12
Lou
And hope that they’re listening.
00:13:24:09 – 00:15:16:08
Derek
It is this, and maybe we’ll get to it. But it sounds like eventually we need a new tree of life. Spoiler. You know what it is. But I want to. But first, let’s talk about – there are some – from the outside looking in, again this is something that has to be understood, and it’s important to understand from within the community that it came from, within the systems, within that worldview. But if we don’t give that – allow that to happen, then it just seems – so from, you know, like many things from the outside looking in, it can seem crazy. If you think of something like baseball. Beautiful game. If you know nothing about it you’re just like, why are they hitting that ball with that stick over and over again? How useless is that? So, you know, it’s sort of understanding from the inside. But some of the versions that – some of the things we can hear about it from the outside or it would be things like this. Isn’t this just cosmic child abuse? The eldest son takes the father’s beating so that younger children don’t have to? That’s a charge that has been given to us. Or even like why, again we’re talking about blood, why blood? What separates this from what every other culture was doing with blood sacrifice where God is angry so you have to make him happy again, and for some reason, killing something innocent does that. That is other pagan worldviews and things like that. What are some of the ways we could begin, I think, responding to those that shows the major differences with this God of love versus what’s going on in these?
00:15:16:23 – 00:17:45:06
Xandra
I have a couple of thoughts that just came to me, and I’m sure there will be more to add, but one thing that strikes me about this whole thing is how unified the father and the son are and were. And I always, because people will say, you know, God killed Jesus. Basically, that’s the picture that you see. That he struck him down. But basically, the last thing that he says before he’s betrayed and arrested is this beautiful prayer that he prays in John 17. And part of that prayer is “I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name,” he’s talking about his disciples, praying for them, “which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one.” So he’s not saying we are going to be one or we used to be one. He’s saying we are one. So even as he’s there, he’s the incarnate son of God kneeling on his knees in the Garden of Gethsemane weeping, saying, “Let them be one, even as we are one” right now. So they were in perfect unity when he went to the cross. This was not punishment. This is not – God was saying you did something wrong, Jesus. And therefore, I am going to heap all of the sin of humanity upon you. Jesus was blameless. And so they were completely unified. And also Jesus went willingly. And yes, he said, as you mentioned, Lou, he said, if there’s any other way, right? He did say that, but then he says, not my will, but yours be done. He submitted his volitional will to God and said, whatever you would have, I would have. So it’s not like God did this against Jesus or against – without his permission. Jesus said, I will do whatever you want me to do. And then the third thing I would say, coming on another of those points, is that the motivation of Jesus, I mean, according to Romans, he did this because of love. He did this because he loved us. He willingly sacrificed himself because of love. Not to earn his father’s approval or anything like that. Not because he deserved it, simply because he loved us. And those points for me are very powerful and absolutely set Christianity as a religious paradigm outside of any other religion that I’ve looked into.
00:17:45:09 – 00:19:48:03
Lou
And can I just say like, too – like, this is where having an understanding of the Trinity is so important because if Christ isn’t divine, it is cosmic child abuse, right? Like, think about it. Because if Christ really is just this human being that God eventually then put his spirit on and then like, no, you’re 100% right, it’s true. This would be a problematic thing. But this is why, like, this is why the Trinity is so fascinating to me, because it’s so complex that it’s even difficult to put in words. Like, every time we try to go after it, it’s like you’re going to diminish one part. You’re going to overemphasize his three-ness versus the one or the one, like, it’s never – It’s one of those complicated things. But the lived reality of something like this is like that completely satisfies it. Like, it completely makes sense of this. The fact that God himself would be willing to take on the wrath that ultimately we actually subjected ourselves to, in light of our rebellion. And that he doesn’t ask someone else to do it for him. Like, what kind of God is that? That is not a manmade God. Because the manmade gods are actually very, very similar. I’m really angry. Come on. And you can leverage power over that. You can’t leverage grace. You can’t leverage his understand, he was willing to do it for our sake and that we can actually receive that forgiveness, in light of what he’s done for us. That’s why I think I get so frustrated when people are like, this is child or cosmic child abuse. I’m like, you’re completely missing what Christianity is saying about the Trinity. Like, the Trinity is three persons, one essence. It’s not one is like kind of not really God and the other one – No, it’s all God. Like, and yet Christ humbled himself, humiliated himself by taking on human flesh in order so that we might be redeemed. But it’s not like he was like, I just, I’m sorry, I’m probably not making a lot of sense of it. Just like, this is the key to Christianity is if you fully get – if you understand the complexity of the Trinity and why this matters, it will change how you view suffering, how you view atonement, how you view the entire world is if you see God in the way he’s actually described himself as three persons and one essence.
00:19:48:08 – 00:23:01:11
Alycia
The Trinity truly makes God perfect. Without it, there’s all kind of issues. Whether he’s not able to show love in the greatest possible way, whether he’s alone and doesn’t experience, you know, a relationship, a communication, and love before creating anything, you know, whatever it is. But, you know, just one other thought, too, and what you had asked, Derek, about this idea. How does it make it different than other belief systems? And when you look at other belief systems, even going back to Bible days, you know, there was blood that was shed as a penalty for somebody sins. But it was always a temporal kind of a thing. Right? You know, maybe it helped appease, you know, their belief of famine or drought or whatever is going on. But it wasn’t something that would ultimately bring about a change that lasted. And so one of the things that makes this so different is that this applies to all of humanity and there is no more sacrifices that need to be made. Which is why I think it’s fascinating that the Dome of the Rock is now in the place of the temple. You know, the temple gets destroyed in AD 70 and, which was the only place that they could or where the Holy of Holies was and where the curtain was and where they would go in and make these amends for God on behalf of the people. And yet that temple is destroyed, never able to be built again. Other times, previously when it was destroyed, they were able to rebuild it. Never was it able to be built again. And not only was it not to be rebuilt, the Dome of the Rock was built on top of it, which is where the Muslims believe that Muhammad kind of went up into the air. So it’s like even if they wanted to build, they can’t because there’s this structure that’s there. And so even if they want to build a temple and to go in and make sacrifices on behalf of the sins of humanity using animals, they don’t even have the ability to. I don’t think that that is something that is oh, coincidence. I think there’s a real intentional thing that God allowed this to happened to say, you will not – you no longer need to sacrifice for your sins. It’s actually done. And there’s another structure there anyway. So you can’t do it. But going back to kind of what you were saying, what Xandra was saying, this example of – that she pulled from John, right? Another example is Matthew, Matthew 20:28, where Jesus is talking. He says, “Just as the Son of Man did not come to be served. but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.” Ultimately, what we’re looking at here is this murder that God is sending a son or is this a willing sacrifice? That’s the question. And there is a difference between murder and sacrifice. There’s a difference between when a mother sacrifices her life for a child and when a mother murders her child. Those are two different things. And Jesus willingly comes and is that sacrifice. So it’s not infanticide because infanticide actually has to do with, like actually the murdering of children, right? Jesus, number one, was an adult. But regardless, it was him saying, I actually want to sacrifice and lay down my life as a demonstration of love. One of the reasons there’s justice, there’s all these other things. Taking the wrath on upon him. All these things. But it is different when we talk about the way that somebody actually chooses to be that person, to be the final sacrifice versus him being forced to. He definitely didn’t feel like he was forced.
00:23:04:00 – 00:24:32:18
Derek
Yeah, I love that John, specifically I think it was John 10:18, “No man takes my life from me.” So it does sort of very quickly get to that like this was a voluntary thing. But I wonder – to kind of maybe get to some of the aesthetics of it or some of the technical aspects of it, with a little bit of the time we have left, the whole time. Jesus knows he’s headed towards a cross. Before he’s crucified, he tells them, you have to pick up your cross. So there is this – and they don’t get it and they tell him he’s wrong. I mean, all sorts of things like they don’t know what’s going on. But what would you say, just specifically, the cross was this torture instrument. This way of public humiliation. Jewish people knew it very well. There have been mass crucifixions of Jews. That’s one of the reasons Jewish people hated Romans. There was this terrible history of it. But it seems like almost, not just Jesus had to die, but like he had to die on a cross almost too. What – there are lots of things we can say about this – what’s some of the, you know, the imagery or the even biblical reasoning given for why this instrument?
00:24:33:20 – 00:24:42:12
Lou
I’ve heard. Well, I’ve spoken a lot. Do you want to say something? Like, this is another Keller thing, I mean, you referenced it, this idea of it all.
00:24:42:14 – 00:24:44:16
Derek
Should we just get him on the podcast?
00:24:44:16 – 00:24:47:18
Lou
Can we get Keller on here? So there’s the –
00:24:47:18 – 00:24:48:23
Xandra
Call Lou, Junior Keller.
00:24:49:00 – 00:26:09:22
Lou
There’s the starting the garden ending in Revelation. But then you see the theme of the tree. The theme of what, it’s like, Obey me about the tree. You see it in the garden, we rebel and wreak havoc. We see with the story of Isaac and Abraham, the son is walking up the mountain with his father with wood on his back, ultimately to be slain and yet God withholds. And what he’s saying there. We should rebel. Like, that story should like, mess with us. You should be like, man, that seems ridiculous. Why in the world would God ever ask a father to kill a son? And it’s like, exactly. Because thousands of years later, God was actually willing to do it for your sake. He’s showing you the ridiculousness of what’s going on here. And he says, obey me about the – and Christ is the only one – he says, obey me about the tree, and it ultimately ends in his death, ultimately so that we would have life. And then we finish in Revelation with this understanding of the New Tree of the Tree of Life, not new tree – the Tree of Life. There’s a massive theme of tree, wood, all that thing. And so I think, oh gosh, and then you have the – I’m sorry, then you have Christ being raised up as Abraham talks about – no, as Moses talks about, right? Is it Moses? Yeah.
00:26:11:00 – 00:26:14:19
Xandra
Yeah. Because before, they would look up to it and be healed.
00:26:14:19 – 00:26:48:20
Lou
The snake, yeah, so sorry, it’s all of those things. And I don’t actually know if I’m getting to anyone but what I’m saying is there’s a massive theme there. And I think the more you’re willing to look at the whole theme, it’s like, Wow, this is extremely specific and orchestrated in a profound way to know that it started with – it did start with a rebellion about the tree and that God ultimately gave his life upon a tree in order to show that we would get back to the choice of being in relation, because what does the Tree of Life represent? Its relationship with God in eternity. Is that accurate? Is that theologically accurate? I think.
00:26:48:20 – 00:28:09:03
Derek
I think that’s good. Well, there even you – and we’re running out of time – but you alluded to it to that sacrifice, the sacrificial system, is not God’s ideal. It’s not in Eden. It’s not in the new creation. This was not necessarily something he desired to do. This is sort of – What he desires is to remain in relationship. And there are certain things when you separate yourself from the source of life that, you know, have to be taken care of somehow. And this was the way. But I do love, and you kind of talked about it, too, I like to talk about the early church. Athanasius has that beautiful quote, he said, “What other way,” kind of alluding to, I think, John 11, “What other way in this time frame would people die where they’re raised up in their arms or spread to the whole world?” So there is even then this aesthetic of like, oh, there is something tragic and brutal and beautiful going on. Well, that’s all the time that we have but, just real quick, can one of you just sum it up for us? We talked about why did Jesus have to die and things like that, but why? Just give a quick pitch. Why did Jesus die?
00:28:11:12 – 00:31:11:04
Alycia
Well, I guess for me, the story always starts in the Old Testament. And because I just think the cross is part of a larger narrative there. And I think when you look at Romans 5:8 it says, “God demonstrates his love for us. While we were sinners, Christ died.” You know, we see a system where, in the Old Testament, we are very, very aware of sin. There’s no question. Oftentimes, when people are punished, they’re not like, oh, well, you know, that wasn’t that big of a deal. No, they get it. They like, I messed up. This is happening or whatever. They have an awareness of sin. And I think, on this side of the cross, we often lose that because we are given forgiveness and grace and we forget the impact and the seriousness of what sin is. And so when I look at Jesus’ death on the cross, I love the Romans 5:8 verse because it doesn’t say God demonstrated his love for us, and while we were wonderful, good people, Jesus died. It’s while we hated him. Before we paid the penalty, people died. Some instantly were and felt the consequence of the sin that they did. In the New Testament, Jesus is willing to say, I’m going to take that on me. Well, in other words, essentially, I’m willing to be tortured for the torturers that are torturing me. I’m willing to die for the people that are literally putting me on this cross. They are his enemies. We are his enemies because while we weren’t there to whip him, we still have – even if they hadn’t done that, we did enough in our lives to put him there. And so ultimately, for me, the sacrifice is beautiful. The fact that God would show love in the greatest possible way, which is through the sacrifice of himself. To me, not only shows that he is morally good, but that he actually is a true perfect God. Because, in a belief system where God does not sacrifice himself, he does not show love in the greatest possible way. And to me, if he doesn’t show love in the greatest possible way, then I can sacrifice my life for somebody and love somebody in the greatest possible way and I can do a better good for somebody than God can. How is he then, God? How is he then, good? And this is getting back to why the Trinity is so important, because when Jesus dies, you have God sacrificing himself in the greatest possible way, and now I know I can trust his morality. Now I can know I can trust his love for me. Now I know I can trust his character. I can trust so many things because he’s demonstrated his perfection. And so I think the cross, it is a massive thing to look at. But we, you know, if we look at it through the complete picture, we find it to be so beautiful and something that we can say, My goodness, Lord, I know I put you there, but thank you for what you’re willing to do for me. For what you were willing to do. Innocent person dying for me. And that is a sacrifice that we would find beautiful even today if somebody was to give their life for me. We don’t need to find it any less beautiful for the savior for the world.
00:31:12:15 – 00:31:19:15
Derek
All right, thank you. Yeah. Well, that was beautiful. I think we got it. We answered it.
00:31:19:15 – 00:31:21:03
Lou
Atonement, wrapped up. Done.
00:31:21:03 – 00:31:37:20
Derek
Yeah, done. Never have to talk about that again. Thanks, guys, for joining us once again. We will see you next week if you want your question answered on the podcast, discussed on the podcast, please email us at wherewebegin@lightengroup.org. We’ll see you next week.
