Where We Begin is a podcast where we discuss some of the toughest objections to the Christian faith.
In this episode, the group discusses how pornography can not only affect the viewers, but also those around them, and how the objectification of others can cause physical, emotional, and spiritual pain. The good news is that God gives us grace from the shame and hurt that comes with pornography.
Transcript: What’s so bad about porn?
WWB S1E2 TRANSCRIPT
00:00:00:08 – 00:00:37:01
Derek
“What’s so bad about porn?”, today on Where We Begin. Hey, guys. Welcome back to Where We Begin, a podcast where we discuss some of the toughest objections to Christianity. I’m Derek, your host once again, joined again by Alycia, Lou, and Xandra. Lou’s smiling.
00:00:37:10 – 00:00:46:17
Lou
Well, I don’t know why you’re like laughing at people’s toughest objections to Christianity. I don’t know. I didn’t think that was that funny and it’s just odd that you’d start a podcast that way.
00:00:47:06 – 00:00:48:23
Derek
I don’t know why it has to be like this between us.
00:00:50:16 – 00:00:56:08
Lou
You’re right. It’s a new season. Why don’t we just? Derrick is a great man and I’ve enjoyed working with him.
00:00:56:14 – 00:01:42:18
Derek
Yeah, and one day I hope to be able to say the same about you. Look, this week, this week. Um yeah, we do. We have another. They’re always going to be tough ones. But this one, I think, is especially difficult. It’s something that some people think is harmless. And yet other people have said it’s completely ruined their lives. Let’s jump right in. The question is, what’s so bad about porn? Now I can imagine there’s someone out there who is tired of the stress, tired of loneliness, tired of all these things and think, well, it’s better than a lot of the alternatives. It doesn’t hurt anyone. So why not? What’s the big deal? As a Christian?
00:01:44:23 – 00:02:38:13
Alycia
Well, I just think, you know, it’s interesting when we say it doesn’t hurt anyone because I actually think that you or someone and the fact that it is actually hurting you should matter. You know, there’s a lot of, I think, one of the most interesting things about the harm done when someone engages with pornography is the way that it rewires your brain. And one of the things that they’re learning is that even after you leave pornography, and no longer do it, the rewiring that you did to be aroused by watching pornography. Sometimes that’s not even reversible. And so when we’re saying that it doesn’t hurt anyone, I just wonder if we’re thinking about the harm that is done to oneself, let alone, you know, the shame and the guilt and the feelings of remorse and on the hiding and the secrets that you have is why. I just think that you matter as well.
00:02:38:13 – 00:04:22:15
Xandra
And not only that, I mean, I agree with everything that you’re saying, but if I could just maybe take it to even a deeper level, I think it does hurt other people. Really hurts other people. I did some work with women and children who were being recovered out of human trafficking, and they, a lot of these people had basically been sexual slaves. A lot of them for the majority of their lives. And a lot of work has been done to show how the porn industry creates open doors for human trafficking. And Justin Holcomb has done a lot of work on this and showing the link between – he actually, I think, wrote a paper called Oh, no, I can’t remember what it’s called, but basically saying that that porn is not a victimless thing. It creates a ton of victims. And it’s really important to remember that what you’re watching on a screen might look like just people who are play acting or whatever. But sometimes those people are there against their will. And it’s really hard to tell who is there because they’re being trafficked and who’s there of their own volition. And a lot of times you don’t know. But it is opening the industry for child pornography, child prostitution, and a lot of abuse against women. I mean, again, I’m a nerd and I read a lot of papers and a lot of sociology papers, but there’s a very strong correlation between violence against women and the propensity of pornography in a culture. So the more porn usage you have, the more and more aggression you see towards women in that society. And I find that really interesting.
00:04:23:00 – 00:07:14:12
Lou
Derek, I speak on this a lot. I’ve talked to enough young men and women, and it was pornography was something that was in my life for over a decade. I know that the majority of people aren’t wrestling with, “Is this bad?” All of them know that. A lot of it is. “How do I get out of it?” Gosh, I knew about sex trafficking. I knew it wasn’t good. That wasn’t a problem for me, and it’s not like I was heartless towards it. It was like, this is a very addictive behavior. And the idea that it’s not – and that’s the other thing. It’s harmless. OK, so fine. Don’t be addicted to it. It’s like, can we not agree that addictions are bad? And I’ve looked enough young men in the eye all across this country. I’ve seen its own harmful effects it was in my own life. And to your point, Xandra. Oh my goodness. Like, it starts off innocent in a lot of ways when you’re young. I was nine years old, eight years old when I first saw pornography, and it’s very innocent initially. By the time that I was like, when the Lord, like, really convinced me, I was ashamed at what I was looking at. Like, I remember, like crying, thinking, how could I possibly want to see this? But it is. It’s a dark thing and it gets darker. And that’s. But that’s sin. Sin doesn’t. You don’t get better at sin, right? It just gets more dark and you hide it. And it’s. And I just, I mean, I don’t know, we’re going to take this conversation, but I would love to. I don’t think – I know there’s some people arguing – it’s, you know, it’s a good thing and you have the idea of like OnlyFans now, which is clearly these are these are definitely not people that are being sex trafficked and to some extent, they’re right there. You’re you’re not doing that anymore. But I just think the objectification of people, which is what pornography is, will never go well. We think we’re better nowadays, you know, we’re not as wicked as we were, you know, just even 100 years ago. We are. The human heart is still so messed up, and the idea that we don’t think that this is harmful to the people doing it and then also to your own heart and what you think all this. It’s just, I don’t think that most people are wrestling with it. I’m not saying people aren’t. I don’t wanna put words in people’s mouth. I know some people I’ve argued with and they’re like, “No, this is a healthy thing.” I think. I think the majority of people, even non-Christian, are so enslaved to the shame. Even without a moral compass, they don’t have a religion to tell them it’s wrong. Like, I’ve never talked to a single guy that said, yes, after I looked at pornography and I masturbate, I’m like, that was a great use of my time. None. Not once. It’s always like, it’s a weird thing you hide. It’s a one thing. Something feels wrong when you’re doing – something feels off and you know, to Christianity, something is off. That wasn’t what God designed it for. Even if you’re not a Christian, even if you have a Christian conscience, you can still be like, Why does that not feel right? Why does something feel just a little off there?
00:07:14:12 – 00:08:05:02
Derek
Well, talk about that. Talk about that more. Like, what is the design and why is it that – it’s almost like an objective moral law type of situation where objectification will always go wrong? You hear people arguing for, well, yeah, a lot of the porn industry is not good, but there are actually good versions of it that we could put, you know, maybe it’s not people who are forced into it and it’s just, you know, whatever it would be, maybe you’re just watching a married couple and so you don’t have these – but there’s always going to be something that goes wrong with objectification and maybe talk about what is that foundation, I guess? What is it that’s instilled in all of us, regardless of our beliefs, that we’ll just always react poorly to that sort of situation?
00:08:06:15 – 00:09:20:18
Xandra
I wonder if part of this might come back to what we call in Christianity the “Imago Dei”, which means “the image of God.” And it’s this idea that God has put his own image onto each and every one of us and each of us are sacred to God. And our sexuality is sacred to God. And Glen Scrivener writes about this beautifully and says, you know that we aren’t meant to be treated like playthings. We aren’t meant to be treated like objects because our sexuality is sacred to God. And so, I think maybe part of why it’s not just, I mean, a biological thing like Alycia mentioned earlier, how it can rewire your brain. We can talk about oxytocin and vasopressin and what actually happens to the human brain when you engage in this sort of behavior and the chemical response there. But there’s also a spiritual component, and a spiritual response because human beings are not just sexual beings. They are spiritual beings. So I think that’s one facet of why the objectification is such a big deal. But I’m sure there’s more to add.
00:09:21:17 – 00:12:50:11
Lou
Yeah, I would go down to the image of God. Like, there’s a reason why when you when you turn something into something that it’s not, something feels wrong about that. And we’re actually really good at that with people we’ve been, I mean, look at human history. We’re really good at objectifying people in a sexual way or on a variety of ways. It’s a way for us to have more control in our lives. It’s a way for us to feel better about ourselves. It’s exactly the way the Bible just describes our heart. Like, I feel like one of the most compelling arguments of Scripture is just the way it diagnoses us, like the way it describes what’s the very thing in you that you desire? It’s like, man, is my heart off and I want it not to be. I want to not be that way in. But I think if we’re honest with ourselves, we really do. We desire to be, in some ways, our own God. We want to be the one calling the shots. We want to be the one that says, “This is right for me, and this is wrong for me.” We don’t want any authority telling us that and we’ll live peacefully in a society that agrees with us for a long time. But as soon as the rubber meets the road, if it disagrees, I’m going to go against that and we do that with God as well. And yeah, I just think this one is just so – Aww, the pain. I mean, I just I can’t overemphasize like even in my own life as a young Christian man feeling like, and this probably another point in here, just the shame you feel because it’s the one thing I wasn’t supposed to struggle with. And unfortunately, this is an area that the church, I would say overall just has done poorly in the sense that it just doesn’t even talk about it. I remember being told, Yeah, pornography is bad. Don’t do it. And I was always like, I know. The problem is, I can’t get out. And that’s the other part. I just want to just take a minute. Sorry, I’m going to probably talk a lot in this podcast. I’ll try not to in every podcast, but Christians are really good with the spiritual aspect. We’re awful, but the biological things. Like, we see this purely as just a spiritual thing. But here’s the problem. We’re embodied souls, right? We’re not one or the other. Like our bodies matter, our bodies matter, because even in the end, we get a new body, right? This matters. The way God designed us. The one thing that I really struggled with was like, I was biologically addicted to something. Not just like – every time I was stressed, I was sad, I was happy. Whatever the situation, I trained, I preconditioned myself to turn to pornography and masturbation in order to alleviate whatever I was going through. So when the Lord brought conviction and I wanted out of that, he really did start changing my heart. But I still had the biological addiction to it. Like, there are times I was like, I’m not even remotely like wanting to look at pornography, but I just felt this crazy like urge and it was like is because for a decade of my life, that’s what I told my body do. And so I tell young men time, I say, it almost took, not the same amount of time, it almost took the amount of years I was in, like addicted to pornography, to get out of it fully. And it was a great process. And since it took time and then slowly, it was like less and less and less, but like it was – And the freedom that comes from that is what I just want people to like – When Scripture describes that those who sin are a slave to sin. I cannot. I cannot resonate with that scripture more than because I felt enslaved, and I didn’t know what to do. And I feel like most people, even Christians, even non-Christians, feel that way. So I just, yeah, I don’t even know, you know what I’m trying to get at.
00:12:50:11 – 00:12:55:06
Xandra
If I can ask, I’m just curious, how did you come out of that? What was the turning point for you?
00:12:55:06 – 00:16:30:08
Lou
Sure. I think that the – The number one thing is, I didn’t need to not look at pornography. I needed a heart that didn’t want to look at pornography, right? And so there’s a lot there’s actually a lot of even Reddit communities right now that are men who are, you know, committing to not masturbating for 30 days or not whatever. And look, I love that. Stop. Don’t do that. The problem, it’s just going to manifest itself somewhere. What I needed was a radical heart transformation. I needed to not to desire this wicked thing that objectified women in my life. And so I’d say the first thing was like, when I was in college and just I read a book is called At The Altar of Sexual Idolatry. I was I already knew that it was bad. I just was justifying because I wasn’t sleeping around, I wasn’t doing these things, and the Lord just brought conviction in a way that I I never felt before. Like, to the point I was like I was in tears on the floor of my dorm. I looked at Psalm 51, if you want to. I once heard a pastor say “I’d sin like David if I could repent like David.” Look at Psalm 51, the way like David writes out after what he does with Bathsheba and Nathan confronts him. It is a beautiful thing to pray over your life because that’s what the Lord brought to me. He just said. And I just realized, like Lord, more than anything, I sinned against you, and I need help getting out. That was the beginning stages of it. But, I think one of the hardest things in getting out of pornography is actually the shame and one thing that I love in the book of James, I actually got this from Ray Ortland, who was just a brilliant pastor. Just, yeah, awesome Christian in our time right now. He just wrote a book on pornography. The name is escaping me, but he looks to James 5, and he said, James 5:16. And he talks about the idea of like confessing your sins to one another, pray with one another and you will be healed. I saw that scripture the first time, just even a few weeks ago, and it’s interesting. That was exactly what I had to do, though. This idea of confessing to people – that’s the thing we fear most, and that was the thing I was so afraid to do. I can confess to God all day. Having to look a friend of mine, someone that I knew and loved to tell them, this is what I was struggling with. That was the hardest thing. That was the insurmountable thing I couldn’t do. And once I did that, it felt like strongholds started to break. It did not go away immediately, but I constantly had to keep going and confessing and confessing and confessing and confessing. My key to anybody listening is like, it seems to me in Scripture, as a Christian, the only tools you have to overcoming something like this is repentance and confession. You’re never going to white knuckle yourself out of sin. I mean, that is that’s the tool of the Christian, right? It’s just repentance and confession, repentance and just keep – and don’t be afraid to bring people into your life because there’s something about when somebody gets to be in some ways, the way that, you know, God constantly is offering us grace and forgiveness. But when your brother, when your sister is able to offer you that as well, there’s something really beautiful about that. And I think that’s what James is talking about. When you confess to one another, there’s healing that happens. I think God uses those experiences. And so, yeah, I just want to emphasize like – If you really want out of that thing, it is the scariest thing, especially if nobody knows. But if you would confess that and get to a state where – I talked to everybody about my pornography addiction, I couldn’t care – Like, once the Lord brings like healing, you just want, I just want everybody to know it. Like, I’m like, I know what you’re going through. There’s not a single bit of judgment in me because I know exactly what you’re going through and I want you out. I want to help you out of that thing. So sorry, I don’t know if I answered that.
00:16:30:14 – 00:16:34:20
Xandra
No, you did. Thank you so much. But I was really curious, and it’s really cool to hear more of your story.
00:16:35:01 – 00:19:14:07
Alycia
And if I can add on to that because I think I don’t want to say, assume that our audience and everybody who listens to us is Christian, and for some people out there, you know, they’re like, Look, I don’t really accept your God thing. But it is something that they’re struggling with. And there’s definitely people who have overcome porn who are not religious, who are not Christians. And so, you know, just I think one thing I would just want to add on then is just the piece of, you know, getting to the point where you are actually saying, I desire a greater purpose for my life than what ever I am running from that’s causing me to run to porn. Like Lou was alluding to this different stresses and different – just things in his life that he would handle with porn. It’s an addiction. Like, some people go to alcohol and people go to drugs, some people go to porn, right? It’s another thing that people go to as an outlet when they’re under stress and duress. And so, you know, is there. So maybe one of the questions to ask oneself, if you’re at the point of thinking, how do I begin to get over this? Is start to say, do I desire greater purpose in my life, desire for something greater than what I’m running from? Like, what I’m running from and medicating myself with when it comes to pornography? And I think that’s one of the beginning steps. Then saying, if you’re willing to say, I want my life to be more than just – more than the secrets, more than the pain to my family and friends, like you alluded to, more than just, you know, the very temporary gratification I’m getting. And because I feel guilty afterwards and I feel shameful afterwards, and I feel humiliated afterwards. If I want something more then. If you’re at that point, then yes, the accountability piece is going to be very helpful. If talking to somebody, like Lou said, confessing that and letting somebody know, you know, what you’re dealing with, what is going on, but also putting some safeguards in. You know, I mean, places like, you know, Covenant Eyes is probably one of the most popular ones that put safeguards on your computer, and they let other people know when you’re looking at things you shouldn’t look at. If you know you’re likely to sin at night when you go to bed with your phone, well, don’t bring your phone into the bed. I actually had a friend who I never asked him what his specific struggle was, but I observed him at one point we were in college and he took his laptop. He went to bed and he took his laptop and he gave it to another male friend, and then he went to bed. I never asked him what his situation was, but I just noticed him doing that and him walking off, and I realized he is putting a safeguard in place right now because maybe he’s feeling weak in this moment, and he wants to make sure he doesn’t even give himself the opportunity. And so I think even putting those – in recognizing that this is where or when I do it, and here’s what I need to do to help make sure that I’m not falling into those situations.
00:19:14:16 – 00:19:24:22
Lou
Yeah, I just to say that I think that’s essential. I just think that has to be, that has to follow the other thing because I tried that before the other and it didn’t work.
00:19:25:00 – 00:19:25:17
Alycia
“The other” meaning?
00:19:25:23 – 00:19:38:09
Lou
As in, you need to genuinely, like there needs to be an aspect of genuine repentance. Like the Lord needs to change your heart, and you need, like sin thrives in darkness, right? And so when you expose it, it loses its power in a lot of ways.
00:19:38:09 – 00:19:39:04
Alycia
That’s why we tell somebody.
00:19:39:05 – 00:21:51:03
Lou
Exactly, you confess. When I was able to do that, but then also because absolutely. I’ve just turned 30 years old. I will not watch a single like, you have all these series right now on HBO, whatever, Netflix, and everybody’s like, “You’ve gotta watch this series.” If there’s a movie or series out that has sexually explicit material, I won’t watch it. That’s a little embarrassing as a 30 year old, but I don’t care. I was like, I know what that does to me. Now that doesn’t mean nobody should. I’m just saying I know from my own – That’s a protective measure in my – The idea with Covenant Eyes thing, just didn’t – I was just like, there’s ways around that. Like I could always find – I needed something different. And I do think it can be as specific. There’s even like guys in my life that – we even tried like, I don’t know whatever. This may not be good. But you’ll see like tying – if I told you, for example, if you’re young guy, if I told you, “Hey, if you do not look at porn for this entire year, I’ll give you $1,000,000.” I bet you any money. You’d find some unique ways not to look at porn. Honestly, like you would find – so I actually tied my bank account to it as well. Like certain time, like a group of guys, you had to donate to Fight The New Drug, which is a great organization. Like if you look, you had to donate. Just something like that putting a protector up. Now I don’t want to become religious because I do think there’s a little bit of like we we can’t forfeit the gospel and white knuckle our lives to get better and something. That’s not what I’m trying to do. But to your point, Alycia, absolutely, there are. What are the protective measures you’re putting in your life to alter it? Because God has to do his work. The question is, are you even? You know what’s triggering you, you know what caused you to go? Are you willing to actually – I love that your friend was willing to go, “No, I know my temptation. I give this” – and I think it’s a beautiful thing to do. And can I just say too, once its there, it is a beautiful thing to know it changes for you. Like I can legitimately say, like, I feel like the Lord is like – it is – I think pornography will always, it’s just like any addict or addiction. You always know it could be there. It’s like that thing right there. But where I’m at today and what the Lord has done in my life. It’s almost like it’s not there, like I can generally say the Lord changed my heart. And that is something I can just like. I can’t tell you the amount of joy, how much joy that brings me when I sit here like, Oh my gosh, I remember where I was and what he’s done for me and like that is so – I just think it’s so compelling.
00:21:51:19 – 00:24:00:22
Derek
It makes me think of that. There’s a book you like a lot, Lou, I know called The Great Divorce. It makes me think of this image of Lewis talking about this parasitic lizard on this guy’s back and he thinks he cannot live without it. “Yeah, I don’t want it. I don’t want it on me, but I can’t live without it.” It’s almost the Saint Augustine sort of, “Lord make me chaste, but not yet” sort of thing from confessions. And eventually, when I when he gives it over, it’s painful. But this thing on his – this lizard turns into a stallion that he then rides off on. And so I think I hear what you’re saying is sort of talking about. There is this good thing inside of us, you know, that God has given to us. And even in some ways, the way we’re acting out. It’s almost because there is that desire there, that’s good, that’s finding the wrong places for it. And there is a – whatever you would say – a more blessed way, a more life-giving, God honoring way of doing these things that is a true, a true freedom. And I think something else that you said that I think is interesting and maybe one of you could say a little bit about it is when you’re describing what you needed in that moment. You’re talking about, you need freedom from your shame. You need community to come around you. You need a new heart. You need all these things. And you’re talking about living the Christian life. This really is. If we were living the Christian life as it was meant to be lived, these things would be provided. 12-Step groups do a really good job at things that churches should be doing a great job at and don’t. What would you like to see? And this is open to anyone. What would you like to see different in churches and anyone listening to this, who works at a church or just goes to a church, and you want to talk to your pastor about this? What would be some practical things they could say, like, Hey, people out there hurting. We need to help. Here’s what we should start offering.
00:24:02:01 – 00:25:03:16
Alycia
I think first of all, you preach a message on it. I mean, I actually recently watched the message that a pastor preached just this year from the stage talking about his struggle with pornography and just addressing it with the church and giving them solutions. And so it’s like you’ve already opened the door and you’ve already told people to talk. So now people feel like, OK, well, maybe I can talk because there’s actually an opportunity for me to do that, and they feel like this is actually the pastor himself struggled with pornography. I can’t imagine I’m going to get kicked out of this church for admitting my struggle. If that’s what he’s struggled with and he’s welcoming me to come and confess this. So I think just first thing I would say would be feel free to just talk about it and preach on it from the stage and let people know that they’re not alone. Because as we go and pull these poll these churches and look at the pastors and members, you see that this is not a minority situation. So many people are wrestling and struggling with this male and female.
00:25:03:16 – 00:26:32:16
Lou
You have to address it. I mean, pornography used to be something that maybe your uncle had a magazine or something or you had to go buy it. But, like, the average age of exposure is so insanely low. Yeah, like, it’s not a question of when your son or daughter will see porn – or if your son or daughter will see pornography. It’s when? And is the church can even tell them like, this isn’t right? Because it is attractive. Like, I knew what it felt like. I knew when I first saw it, I was like, I know something about that I want, but I also knew I shouldn’t tell anybody, too. That was the weird thing. And so talk about it. And that exactly. I think as a man, though, I will say, like, I feel like if there’s one area I’m just not allowed to struggle with as a Christian, it’s in this realm. And I have a lot of shame in that, because it’s like I was told like, if you’re if you’re here, you’re unqualified, you can’t speak. And yeah, that’s really hard and you gotta – I’m not saying there aren’t absolutely consequences to the sexual sin and we need to take it very seriously. But you’re going to get a lot of dudes that hide and they’re going to hide and their sin is going to get dark and it’s going get bigger and it’s going to be bigger and it can destroy their lives. And it’s because the church isn’t actually willing to engage that conversation. And so please start talking about it. Please offer a safe space for men and women because it is becoming also a woman – We just did an event a few months ago where so many young women at a college just shared with Xandra, their struggle. It is a – It’s both sexes. It’s everyone. We have to address this because there’s so much shame.
00:26:32:16 – 00:27:40:07
Xandra
Yeah. And I mean, the gospel is good news for everyone in this, no matter where you fall in this. Maybe you’re a victim. And you’ve been abused. The gospel is good news for you. Maybe you’re a perpetrator and you’ve abused someone and you need forgiveness. The gospel is good news for you. Maybe you’ve objectified someone by lusting after them. No matter where you’re at, the gospel is good news for you, and Christianity offers healing. Christianity offers an answer in a way that a lot of other ideologies don’t, and I know there are a lot of resources out there. There’s a great resource by a bunch of atheist men who are realizing how pornography is destroying their relationships, destroying their minds and trying to put a stop to it. But honestly, Christianity offers answers that no one else can offer because it offers a person who can bring healing, who can walk alongside you, who you can hand yourself over to and surrender to. So wherever you’re at, you know, as you’re listening to this, I just want to encourage you that it’s not too late for you. And just make that step.
00:27:40:15 – 00:27:41:02
Alycia
Yes, I agree.
00:27:41:15 – 00:27:46:19
Derek
Thanks, guys. Thanks, Lou, for your vulnerability today. So I’m actually being sincere.
00:27:47:02 – 00:27:49:04
Lou
I can’t tell. We’ll talk after.
00:27:49:05 – 00:28:03:20
Derek
You know, I appreciate it. I do appreciate it. I think a lot of people struggle with this and they think, Oh, it’s too late for me, and I think we would all just say you know, in the words of Corrie Ten Boom. “There’s no pit so deep that God’s love is not deeper still.” So, thank you guys for joining us.
00:28:03:21 – 00:28:23:11
Lou
Derek, before, can you just even remind people if they are wrestling with that – like, email us. Talk to us. Like we would love. Like, I love talking to people about this, and I was just talking to somebody the other day that I’d met years ago. Like, we love helping people with this and we would help. Yeah, exactly. To let you know, like, this isn’t too big. Yeah, like, this isn’t too dark yet. And God is there so.
00:28:23:11 – 00:28:56:12
Derek
Yeah, seek help. You can email us. You can, you know, there are support groups, talk to people who, you know, love you and have your best interests at heart and who are just gentle spirits in your life. Thanks again. This was a really good episode. I hope you all have really found a lot of hope in what we’ve given today. Feel free to email your questions to us and prayer requests or requests for help on this at wherewebegin@lightengroup.org and we’ll see you next week. We love you guys.
