In today’s episode, the group discusses why Christians are sometimes seen as mean and hateful despite believing that the Holy Spirit is directing them, especially since the Holy Spirit is described as a guide, an advocate, loving, and patient.
References:
- John 17:1-26 – “The High Priestly Prayer”
- John 13:35
- Galatians 5:22-23
- Saint Teresa of Ávila – “The Interior Castle”
Transcript – If The Holy Spirit Is Real, Why Are Christians The Worst?
00:00:00:15 – 00:00:20:06
Derek
If the Holy Spirit is real, why are Christians the worst? Today on Where We Begin.
00:00:25:07 – 00:00:35:03
Derek
Welcome back to Where We Begin: a podcast that answers some of the toughest objections to Christianity. I don’t know if you guys have noticed, sometimes I pronounce “podcast” really strangely when I –
00:00:35:03 – 00:00:35:15
Alycia
Didn’t notice.
00:00:36:06 – 00:00:36:14
Lou
I noticed that every time.
00:00:36:14 – 00:00:50:21
Derek
It’s like a Wisconsin thing and I’m not from there. Anyway, I’m Derek. I talk real good and I’m with Alycia Wood, Lou Phillips, and Xandra Carroll. How is everyone doing today?
00:00:50:22 – 00:00:51:21
Alycia
All righty.
00:00:51:21 – 00:00:52:20
Xandra
Great.
00:00:52:20 – 00:00:54:16
Derek
Yeah? Fun weekends? Did anything go on?
00:00:55:10 – 00:00:56:08
Lou
My niece was born.
00:00:57:05 – 00:00:57:23
Alycia
She was?
00:00:57:23 – 00:00:58:05
Xandra
Oh!
00:00:58:06 – 00:00:59:06
Derek
Why is this the first time we’re hearing?
00:00:59:06 – 00:00:59:20
Xandra
I know.
00:01:00:05 – 00:01:01:00
Xandra
So exciting!
00:01:01:01 – 00:01:05:17
Lou
Yeah, I’m sorry about that. Yeah, my 14th niece or nephew.
00:01:05:17 – 00:01:06:22
Derek
Wow.
00:01:06:22 – 00:01:12:00
Lou
Yeah, a lot of them, but they’re still working on the name, so I don’t know what to tell you.
00:01:12:00 – 00:01:13:19
Alycia
Okay. But she’s here.
00:01:13:19 – 00:01:14:18
Lou
She’s here. Everything is going well.
00:01:15:07 – 00:01:18:20
Derek
She’s on earth or she’s in orbit? So I’m wondering if that’s why you –
00:01:20:10 – 00:01:21:21
Alycia
Lou in his space suit over here.
00:01:21:22 – 00:01:23:12
Derek
I wonder if that’s why you needed those shoes.
00:01:23:12 – 00:01:25:01
Xandra
He’s ready to go in space.
00:01:26:00 – 00:01:29:17
Derek
Like, did you just get back? Did you just land? That’s cool. Did Elon take you?
00:01:29:17 – 00:01:31:04
Lou
Yeah, I did.
00:01:31:04 – 00:01:32:03
Derek
Oh, that’s cool.
00:01:32:14 – 00:01:34:14
Lou
I’ll wait till after the podcast to talk to you, Derek.
00:01:34:14 – 00:01:37:00
Derek
Okay. Sorry, I was –
00:01:37:05 – 00:01:42:00
Lou
Thanks for really hijacking this conversation about my niece into about my boots or something.
00:01:42:00 – 00:01:43:03
Derek
Yeah. Is she beautiful?
00:01:43:16 – 00:01:45:12
Lou
She’s. Well, she looks like an infant.
00:01:46:11 – 00:01:47:04
Alycia
Oh!
00:01:47:04 – 00:01:48:05
Derek
Okay. But, you know, you’re –
00:01:48:15 – 00:01:49:20
Alycia
That’s a whole other thing.
00:01:49:20 – 00:01:52:19
Xandra
Not only does Lou not like puppies, he also doesn’t like babies.
00:01:52:19 – 00:01:59:03
Lou
Please, everyone please. Argue this? Because when you look at a brand newborn, like, they’re a little weird looking. They are.
00:01:59:03 – 00:02:00:11
Xandra
Sometimes they are beautiful.
00:02:00:11 – 00:02:03:17
Lou
No, they’re very weird. I’m not saying – babies are adorable and they’re –
00:02:03:17 – 00:02:10:00
Derek
Okay, I know someone who is clearly very weird looking and has been carrying the burden of this for a long time.
00:02:10:04 – 00:02:16:21
Lou
I have the comfortability to say something that no one else feels like they can say. Because, again, you get – this is what happens if you say it. People then –
00:02:16:21 – 00:02:17:17
Derek
No, I’ve heard a lot of other –
00:02:18:04 – 00:02:22:04
Lou
Yeah, people attacking you thinking you’re a monster. Everyone knows.
00:02:22:04 – 00:02:24:00
Derek
I’ve heard a lot of other jerks say things like this.
00:02:24:01 – 00:02:27:22
Lou
Newborns are quite odd looking, initially.
00:02:27:22 – 00:02:33:03
Alycia
Yes. But you can be odd and beautiful. But they’re elongated heads and everything.
00:02:33:03 – 00:02:41:16
Lou
Whatever. Let’s not get into this today. I already have most of our subscribers not liking me because of Derek. Because you bring out the worst in me every time.
00:02:41:16 – 00:02:42:10
Derek
This is –
00:02:42:18 – 00:02:43:02
Xandra
It’s Derek’s fault, right?
00:02:43:09 – 00:03:01:23
Derek
Yes, I’m very nice and you always attack me and I think people see that. But this actually brings up – this is a perfect segue way – again, thank you, Lou, for setting me up so perfectly – to the question of this episode, because it is, “If the Holy Spirit is real, why are Christians the worst?” And I think this is a good example.
00:03:02:03 – 00:03:03:03
Lou
Oh, Lord.
00:03:03:03 – 00:03:06:07
Derek
Yeah. Yeah, we’re going to have to go there.
00:03:06:07 – 00:03:07:09
Lou
This is a good question though for real.
00:03:07:09 – 00:03:08:07
Derek
We’re going to have to go there.
00:03:08:08 – 00:03:09:23
Alycia
Calling a creation, an infant, not beautiful.
00:03:10:00 – 00:03:20:00
Xandra
I love this question, but I hate answering it because it’s – this is a question I don’t like getting asked the most. That was a weird sentence. This is my least favorite question to be asked.
00:03:20:00 – 00:03:20:12
Derek
Yeah.
00:03:20:12 – 00:03:21:07
Xandra
It’s a hard one.
00:03:21:08 – 00:04:28:17
Derek
Yeah. And so there’s gotta to be a few kind of constituent parts to this because I think some people – like, if you’re not a Christian and you hear “if the Holy Spirit is real, why are Christians the worst?” they may not get that connection. So we’ll talk a little bit about that and then kind of specific questions of this is what the Holy Spirit was supposed to be doing. Why are we doing this opposite? So first lets – it would be – let’s make that connection for people who maybe don’t know it. Just some basic theology. So you should be able to handle this one, Lou. Why is that a powerful argument? I mean, what is sort of – what is supposed to be happening? We have this fancy word “sanctification.” What goes on? What was sort of promised to us of when the Holy Spirit, also called the Advocate, comes to us individually, as a community. What’s going on there? And sort of help explain why this question is so difficult.
00:04:28:17 – 00:05:54:23
Alycia
You know, I mean, I think ultimately – I mean, there’s several reasons, I guess, but I think one of the big things is God doesn’t leave us to kind of function on a day to day basis on our own without his guidance. And ultimately, the Holy Spirit, who we would say is fully God, just like Jesus is, is there to help us understand right and wrong to understand, “Hey, Alycia, you might want to reconsider that. You might want to think about that.” And if I do go forward and do something I shouldn’t it’s like, “Hey, not really what you should have done.” And, you know, so there’s a sense in which helping lead you and guide you in a variety of ways, whether that is in helping you understand a situation a certain way, whether that’s helping you understand morality, whether that is cautioning you against something that you’ve done and to not do it again. So, you know, like the role of God in our lives is that He is involved in helping us be more like Him, which is getting back to this whole sanctification, kind of big word, that you used. It basically is just getting at this idea of a gradual process, and the rate is going to look different based on the person, but over time, being more and more like God. We will never fully get to that place where we look just like Him. But over time we are supposed to be looking more and more like Him moving in that direction, which is why your original question is so problematic in so many ways. But we’ll get to that, I’m sure.
00:05:55:14 – 00:06:03:23
Xandra
And Jesus also said that the world would know that they were His disciples by their love. And they’ll, basically they’ll, know you’re Christians by your love. So –
00:06:03:23 – 00:06:04:19
Lou
For one another.
00:06:04:23 – 00:06:06:03
Xandra
Right. Yes?
00:06:06:04 – 00:06:06:23
Lou
Which is interesting.
00:06:06:23 – 00:06:08:15
Xandra
That you should love one another?
00:06:09:01 – 00:06:18:10
Lou
No. But not even, I’m saying, but not just to the way you love people, the way you would love one another, as in other Christians. That’s actually what he’s arguing, which is fascinating in light of where we are today as a church.
00:06:18:10 – 00:06:31:03
Xandra
So if they don’t love one another, the implication then, going back to your question is that, well, they must not actually be Christians. This must actually not be true if this Holy Spirit does have transformative power, why is no one being transformed by the Holy Spirit after they claim to have
00:06:31:03 – 00:06:54:23
Derek
Yeah, it’s questioning, and I think we’re kind of getting to that, it’s questioning – Yeah. I mean, to the point of the question, if the Holy Spirit is even real. If any of this is even real at all. So it’s – yeah, it’s a – so maybe they’re not a real Christian, but also maybe they’re not a real Christian because there is no such thing as a real Christian.
00:06:54:23 – 00:07:49:02
Xandra
Yeah. And that was, like, the most important thing that Jesus said. I was just pulling up the high priestly prayer, which is John 17, and the whole thing, like, from start to finish, that whole chapter, is about unity. Like, this is the prayer that He prayed before He was betrayed and arrested. And it’s all like, “…keep them in your name, that they may be one, even as you and I are one.” You know, and then goes on again, “…just as you are in me and I’m in you, that they also may be in us. So the world may believe that you have sent me.” So again, this is a testimony so that the world may know that you have sent me. Make them one. Make them unified. So when you see that they aren’t unified, you come back to this passage and you say, okay, well, maybe He wasn’t sent by the Father. It’s just really painful for me to read this passage and look at the world that we’re living in. It’s deeply painful for me.
00:07:49:18 – 00:09:17:15
Derek
And I think too, one of the fascinating things I think for us is we could easily sit up here and think, “man, it would be so much easier if Jesus was just still here walking with us.” and, in essence, He is through the Spirit, but it’s fascinating that He says it’s actually better that I go to send this Spirit. So in a way, sort of, I won’t be, you know, in His incarnation, I won’t be located kind of locally. I’ll be able to go globally in this sort of a way. Like, that’s the next step. Yeah. So that’s, you know, just kind of – so far we’re making this question even more and more difficult for ourselves because there is the question of “why?” I think, so, the first thing that we can maybe talk about when people ask this – one of the things that that will be criticized and who knows, we might have the same answer for each of these. Like, you know, it might be a very simple, but tragic answer. But, um, you know, if the Holy Spirit leads us to all truth, why are there so many disagreements? On very, you know, foundational matters. I mean, you can have someone who says they’re a Christian who doesn’t believe in the resurrection or the virgin birth or all these like foundational things. Now we might say, by definition –
00:09:17:22 – 00:09:20:10
Lou
You just played your cards, right?
00:09:20:10 – 00:09:46:11
Derek
Yeah. But let’s jump into – so now we’re sort of in the realm of beliefs. Let’s say you’re committed, you are seeking the truth, you’re honestly seeking the truth, and yet there are people honestly seeking the truth who have widely different views on things. All clinging to the same Spirit. What’s going on there?
00:09:46:11 – 00:10:16:11
Alycia
Well, I think oftentimes people allow – the reality is there’s a lot of truths about the Bible that are hard to grasp, right? I was talking with someone the other day and she’s like, “So you’re telling me that there was a flood and there was this guy, Noah, and like, that’s a true story?” And then we talked about Jonah and the whale, right? So these things that people are like, “This can’t be true. A virgin birth? What? No way. That doesn’t happen.” Which people at that time frame actually knew as well. They did have an understanding of reproduction, right? So they would also find that to be a bit of like, “hmmm?”
00:10:16:11 – 00:10:17:07
Derek
They knew it was a miracle.
00:10:17:15 – 00:11:54:05
Alycia
Right. They would have felt the same way. But I think part of the reason why we have people on different sides of this is because some of these things are hard for people to grasp. And rather than say, “Hey, look, if Jesus rose from the dead, then I really don’t have – it’s not really all that hard for me to believe that the story of Jonah is true or that the story of Noah is true.” Especially because Jesus referred to the story of Jonah. But for me to believe that the story of Noah is true. In other words, virgin birth isn’t hard for me to believe if I believe in this resurrection piece. And I think that’s probably more where we need to be is if Jesus really did rise from the dead then these other things which seem difficult to understand, become much easier. If a dead man can raise himself? I mean, that’s like, okay, well that opens at the possibilities for a lot of these other things. So I think that’s one of the reasons that people struggle to accept. And I think, sometimes also, some of these things people just want – they don’t like what the Bible says and they want to be merciful. So maybe the topic is hell. You know, I’m a Christian and I love God, but I just believe that ultimately, you know, we’re all going to be with Him and He’s not going to punish people, you know, after they die for what they’ve done. And that has to do more with our own personal struggles with these kind of concepts. And we allow that to skew what we are being taught. And so I think there’s several reasons why we would prefer to have the story of God be a story that we wrote and not the one that He did and makes us uncomfortable to hold on to His truths.
00:11:55:10 – 00:14:47:05
Lou
I think the core of what it means to be a Christian is to understand your need for God and you go to God, ultimately, for Him and nothing else. If the equation was simply, invite Christ in your life, get the Holy Spirit, and now the rest of the time you’re going to be amazing because you now have the Holy Spirit in you. One, I don’t know who wouldn’t be a Christian. And then you’d have to wonder why any of us were Christians in the first place. Because was it actually because we loved God or did we just want to be a good person? Did we just want to have all the things that the Holy Spirit gives us? So I actually do, as much as I want to wrestle with it, I actually love how God has done this because, you know, Christian maturity is a series of decisions over a lifetime and opportunities you get daily to honor God with your life. And you know, there have been seasons in my life where I can genuinely say I was not necessarily feeling the conviction of the Holy Spirit, and by conviction of the Holy Spirit I just mean a drawing back to God, like, “Don’t do this thing, Lou.” I wasn’t feeling the conviction of the Holy Spirit, and I think I talked about this before when we talked about pornography, like pornography was in my life for almost ten years, I knew it was wrong. I would still say I was a professing Christian and I was trying to honor God with everything – this was just one thing I was able to justify because I wasn’t doing all the other things. And I would still go to church. I really – I wanted to live a life for God. And then one day the Lord just convicted me. And it changed from that point on, it was like, this is no longer something I can – and it was a battle to get it out of my life. And I was so grateful for His conviction but I’m also so grateful for the timing of His conviction. If God just convicts us of all of our sin at one moment, I don’t know if any of us would even try to live this life. Because if He just convicts us of – we’re so – our heart is so prideful. We want to talk about why we’re just disagreeing? Because we’re all so still prideful even though we have surrendered our lives to Christ. We still want to be in charge of it. I still want to think that I’m right. I still want to not honor God with everything that’s in Scripture. I still want to be in charge. And that’s the problem. And when the Holy Spirit then comes inside you, it doesn’t just eliminate that. He doesn’t take over. It’s a daily surrender. And Scripture also talks about that as well. This isn’t just this. Oh, yeah, it’s a one time thing, like, and I do think it’s a very Americanized, modern view of like, “What is salvation?” Is it that one moment that you ask the Lord? It’s like, I have to daily – I do believe there is that instant justification and now you are, sorry that’s another Christian word, I’m immediately forgiven of sin and now I’m deemed right. But I have to daily – like why does Christ say –
00:14:47:08 – 00:14:48:06
Derek
Work out your salvation?
00:14:48:06 – 00:17:13:03
Lou
Exactly. Work out your salvation. Because it’s like, I still want to be God. I still want to do this life the way I want to. And every day I have to take up that cross. What does that mean? To literally deny myself because that’s the thing you and I aren’t doing well. We don’t deny ourselves. You want to know why the church is struggling so much and why everyone looks at the church and still struggles to see – because we don’t deny ourselves. And I’m part of that problem. I don’t want to deny myself. I actually want to think the version of theology that I have is the right one and that everybody else is kind of foolish. And so it’s messy. But why that’s still – why that’s so good and why I know the person listening right now is just like, yeah, so you’re reiterating all the more. The good thing is, without knowing you, you fit into that as well. Without knowing whoever is wrestling with that, you fit into that hypocrisy. You fit into this not actually living the way you’re supposed to and getting frustrated with people and you’re holding them to standards that you yourself don’t actually hold yourself to. And so it is extremely welcoming to know that even in light of our failed submission to the Holy Spirit every day, one that grace still applies. That is life changing to me because I can believe in a God that’s forgiven me right in the beginning when I said, “Hey, Lord, would you forgive me?” And really meant it. What about 15 years down the road when I’m still a Christian? I’m still messing up? Like, a God that’s still willing to forgive me? That’s the beauty of sanctification, that He’s willing to keep going. And He who began a good work will not give up on you. He will bring it to completion. And that’s what we’re pushing for. That’s why we’re hoping to do that. But I don’t know if I’m getting off on topic on that, but like I just – this idea that the Holy Spirit is working in us, we can stifle that. We can say no. And does that mean we lose our salvation? No. But life becomes miserable when you are a Christian willing to live in sin because you have the conviction of the Holy Spirit constantly. But you can stifle that and you can desensitize yourself to conviction. And I’ve done that. I’ve done that in my life. I know what that’s like. And I could see how somebody could say, “Well, how is he a Christian if he’s doing those things?” And the beauty is that God actually is still loving in that and is willing to bring us back and woo him back. But it’s a process, is all I’m saying. There’s time. And I think we so want to just make it an easy answer. If you become a Christian, you get the Holy Spirit, and then you start living just a trajectory of good. And, it’s like, it’s more complicated than that.
00:17:13:06 – 00:17:13:12
Derek
Yeah.
00:17:14:17 – 00:20:00:15
Xandra
Yeah, I was just reminded of Saint Teresa, of Avila. I’m not a Roman Catholic, but I read a lot of Roman Catholic writings because I find a lot of it fascinating and helpful, even though I don’t agree with 100%. And Teresa of Avila and Saint John of the Cross are two characters that have really impacted my faith. But she wrote a really interesting theological work called “The Interior Castle,” and it’s about spiritual growth in Christians. And she describes it like a series of mansions or castles, and there are seven of them. And at the middle is basically the most, the closest you can be to God while we are, you know, here in this life. And the first one is, you know, when you step into it, right, as your brand new baby believer or right as you’ve just come to the Lord. And she says that the vast majority of people don’t get past the third house, they stop in the third house and they live there forever for the rest of their lives. And she was deeply grieved by that because she wanted people to grow more in the Lord, become more mature, learn how to love each other, learn how to forgive each other, learn how to, you know, pray, actually pray. So it was something that really bothered her through her whole life, which is part of why she wrote that book and became one of the first doctors of the church or people who wrote theological work in the church. So I find her thoughts interesting. And I also agree that I think there’s a lack of spiritual maturity in the church, and that does not mean that the Holy Spirit is not working. We’re supposed to cooperate with the Holy Spirit. We’re supposed to cooperate with what He’s doing. Now, I can disobey Him. I disobeyed Him very recently. Yesterday I disobeyed Him and with awful ramifications. And I learned my lesson and I’m not going to do that again. So a few people are going to read in here so I’ll just say it. There was something really awful about me on social media and I knew I shouldn’t read it because I knew it was going to hurt my feelings. But I did anyway, and the Lord was prompting me to not look at that. So that’s what that was. So I was not cooperating with Him. Now He was asking me to do something specific and I ignored that and I paid the consequences. And I think a lot of us in the church, we are – we do hear the Holy Spirit, but we’re not cooperating with how He’s prompting us. He is a guide. Yes, He’s a comforter, but He’s also a counselor. All right? So He gives us wisdom. He gives us instruction. And I think a lot of us just go our own way. Though that doesn’t mean that He’s not working. It just means we’re not working.
00:20:00:15 – 00:20:33:10
Derek
Right. Yeah. I think that’s, I mean, I think that’s so right. And I think what – I think people can rightly look at a lot of Christian culture and probably find consumerism in the idea that, “I need to find a church that caters to me.” You know, what can they do for me versus what can I do for the church? You know, that sort of almost a JFK – I almost quoted JFK. But yeah.
00:20:33:12 – 00:20:35:14
Xandra
Ask what you can do for your church.
00:20:35:14 – 00:21:47:13
Derek
Yeah, you can buy the t-shirt online. Yeah. Um, we need to start selling that. Is that copyrighted? Trademarked? But it is – because, you know, a lot of times people bring up, okay, 3 or 4 denominations is fine, but you’ve got thousands now. And as you get more into it, each one seems to be, well, I finally have the 100% correct interpretation of the Bible. So I’m going to come over here now you all have to follow me. And then one of his followers says, “Uh, no. I’ve got the right interpretation.” So now you’ve got to go over and follow her. And it’s this thing going on, I think, which is, it’s that sort of symptom then that’s why you get people at the end of that line, like, the Westboro Baptist Church is an example of, Ooh, they have the Holy Spirit? This is the spirit of love? I mean, do you think that is the sickness that I’m talking about, is that what’s going on there? That’s sort of the tail end of this sort of self sovereignty, in essence, Lou, what you were kind of talking about?
00:21:48:05 – 00:22:48:15
Lou
Yeah, for sure. But I also think we can legitimately say if someone calls themselves a Christian yet has no evidence, you have every right as a Christian to be like, “That’s not Christian.” Like, I love actually using this example all the time. I’ll do it in front of especially on a secular campus. I’ll be like, say I say I’m a feminist yet at the same time I say, “but I just think men are a little bit smarter than women.” You’re gonna be like, Lou, I don’t – I don’t think you’re actually that thing. And I’m like, “No, no, I actually – I go to feminist meetings. All my friends are feminists. I have feminist teachers. I just yeah, I think women should stay home and never get jobs.” They’re going to be like, I don’t think you’re the – So like, when somebody is calling themselves a Christian yet they’re actually spewing hate and they’re spewing things and like, the antithesis of the gospel, I think as Christians we have the right, and I think Paul gives us that right in his epistles to be like, “That’s not Christianity and we want to stand and defend what the real gospel is.” Now, but that does get then – but that’s, I think, what you’re bringing up is the extreme. There are those. And then there is that in-between where it’s like, yeah, we believe in the core truths of Christianity, but we’re disagreeing.
00:22:50:03 – 00:22:51:12
Derek
Still messing up. Yeah.
00:22:51:12 – 00:22:52:04
Lou
Yeah, I don’t –
00:22:52:04 – 00:22:54:17
Derek
We all do. Yeah.
00:22:54:17 – 00:23:21:02
Lou
Some of it too is beautifully cultural that I don’t want to take away from. Like, there’s a way that the church looks so different, not just in doctrine, but in the way things are applied within the church, from a global perspective, that I actually think is stunning because one unique thing about Christianity is that it isn’t western. It isn’t white. It’s not.
00:23:21:17 – 00:24:17:10
Lou
And people want – but yet, for some reason, in the culture that it gets put into, the culture doesn’t get dismantled. It actually can stay within that. Where actually when you look at a lot of other religions, the culture that that religion was founded in stays significantly. I’m technically not reading a real Koran unless it’s in Arabic. Like, I’m not reading it. Like, that’s not how Christianity is. And I think it’s – so, I don’t want to completely take away from the fact that it looks different in that there are denominations and I know that some people are like, denominations are overrated and you’re right. Like, there needs to be a unity there. But there is an understanding like, sometimes like, the cultural experiences of a place in the timeframe that it’s in, Christianity gets lived out differently. Now, I’m not talking about deterring from Scripture, I’m just saying in its application and what it looks like, and I actually don’t want to take away from that. I think I’m learning more from the global church in things that I just would have assumed I had correct, when actually it looks like they would have had this one correct.
00:24:18:01 – 00:24:48:01
Xandra
Yeah and I don’t think that Jesus was referring to that when, in that high priestly prayer, I don’t think He was saying you all have to have one denomination. He was calling for unity. I mean, we all have very different theological views, but we all love Jesus and we’re all on the same page with the majors, with the salvific things, you know. And so I think, you know, and we’re very unified. And I think that’s what Jesus was talking about, verses like, you all have to be this particular branch of Lutheran or whatever.
00:24:48:06 – 00:27:43:18
Alycia
And, but in the same sense, I mean, yes, like if Lou says, “Hey, do you want to come to church with me?” I would never say, what denomination are you? Like, I would just go to church because we agree in the core. But in the same sense, I do want to acknowledge the fact that the denominational issues have been a big deal. When you look at Joseph Smith and Mormonism, right? I mean, it was the Presbyterians and the Methodists and the Baptists. And he’s like, which one’s right? None of them must be right. There must be a different church, right? That spurred him on, as well as topics like predestination and Hell, spurred him on to looking for other things. Mary Baker Eddy and Christian Science struggled with some of those same doctrinal things. Hell and these kind of things. And it spurred her to form a new belief. So, I mean, so at the same sense, I want to recognize that the denominational differences have had great impacts from the negative in terms of causing people to say, well, there must not be any real truth because, getting back to Derek’s question, if there was a real truth, people would have really come together and been unified in this. And I think one thing people, that might help with this is, people I mean, and I know this might be shocking to some people, but there are some things in the Bible that are just challenging to understand. You know, like people struggle with, believe it or not, newsflash, I don’t think we’ll ever, as a global Christian group, be in one hundred percent agreement on whether women should preach or not. I don’t think it will happen. I think that we will always you know, some will say they should, some will say they shouldn’t. And that’s because people are looking at these passages, genuinely trying to understand them, but we don’t have the – there’s like do you look at the cultural thing here, do you look at is applying to all time etc. Same thing with you know, the election and the predestination and these kind of things, I don’t think we’ll ever come to a full agreement on that. And so a lot of the denominational things are going to be around certain aspects of these lines, how we do baptism and and all these kind of things. And so there’s a sense in which you’ve got people who are genuinely trying to understand the truth of what God is saying, but just land in a different place from where somebody does. But they would all agree in the identity of Jesus. That He lived, He died, He rose from the dead, and He’s the only way in which we can be brought back into relationship with God. And that is the essential core. Whereas if you look at Mormonism and Christian Science, they would alter those core truths about who Jesus was. Jesus was one of many gods in Mormonism and Christian Science is a whole different thing about how this world isn’t really real that we’re thinking of, and our senses are confusing us, and this kind of thing. It’s a whole different kind of ballgame. But the point is like there’s going to be alterations to the core thing, but that was on the denominations. Just a second thing. I just wanted to add on to this whole idea of Westboro Baptist and some of these things that we’ve kind of been talking about. Because they, you know, they’ve been a challenge for a lot of Christians. I remember going up to somebody who had a sign, I think they said, “God hates gays” or something like that or “Gays will burn in hell” or something like that. And I was like, Oh no. So I went up to them.
00:27:43:18 – 00:27:47:13
Derek
That’s a very tame version of what they’re signs usually say. Yeah.
00:27:47:13 – 00:30:57:12
Alycia
Yes, and I can’t – it was a, believe it or not, it was a Christian event. And I don’t know what affiliation this particular person was like, what church they belong to, but I heard them shouting at people and I was like, okay. So I went up to them and I had to say something. And what are they going to do? They just turn and they to shout at me, right? Because it’s like, I’m not Christian enough, right? And I think what a lot of this stuff reminds me of, and it’s not just Westboro, but it’s other people, it’s the idea that unless we are as morally clean and perfect as we can be, we are not really Christians. So in other words, we have taken our relationship with God to be about all of our moral good deeds. And to me, that’s just the Pharisees that we read about in the New Testament that say, “I am so good. I am in such great standing with God because I kept the Sabbath and I give my money away and I do all these things.” And oftentimes what people do is they say, as long as I have to – I have to show that I’m as strict on these moral things as can be, and that makes me holy before God or it makes me in a good place before God. And in so doing, they lack the other fruits and benefits that God helps manifest in us. And I think this is where Galatians is helpful because in the book of Galatians chapter 5, it tells us that there are things that are not good for us to do. Idolatry and witchcraft and hatred and jealousy. Fits of rage, selfishness, all of these kind of things. But it essentially says for those who truly are Christians, they will look like this, they will look like love, they will look like joy, they will look like peace. There’ll be patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. I don’t think people use those words when they think of Westboro Baptist. I think that’s the thing that they’re missing is that it’s not just about “I believe this I’m going to do” it’s about how is God changing me and making me more like Him? And what we see is not a God who would stand out there and hold a sign and say how much I hate you. You have a God who says your sin is so much and I hate it so bad, but I’m going to die for you. He’s not having the sign saying you need to burn in hell. He is the being who says I’m going to intervene so that you don’t have to. And it’s like so when you’re holding on to these ideas that they hold on to, that you’ve missed a good massive chunk of Jesus’s message. And that’s only brought – but I think there’s aspects of it in other people. We may not all be Westboro Baptist, but I guarantee you there’s times in our lives we think, “Hey, I haven’t done that so I’m really good before God” realizing that that is not actually the right attitude that we should be having. So just some thoughts on that and just recognizing that the harm that our elevation of ourselves, because of our good deeds, does not bring people closer to Jesus. It makes them find Him ugly. And we need to recognize that, that these other things, the way that we let God make us more like Him through these fruits that we just read about, love, joy, peace, etc., that’s what brings people closer to Him.
00:30:57:20 – 00:31:47:16
Derek
Yeah, and sometimes when we think our good deeds are bringing us closer and making us better, they’re actually not good deeds. Yeah. And I just want to add too, real quick, and I know we’re out of time, but the Bible also, this was not lost on them. They knew what the Holy Spirit would be doing and not doing and what that process would look like. That’s why you have someone like Paul saying, here’s what to do when there are quarrels, not why are there quarrels? I’m totally caught by surprise because I thought the Holy Spirit was going to give a perfect community. And it’s not perfect in that sense yet, it’s perfect in the sense that love was always meant to cover a multitude of sins. And that’s kind of the – that’s what a perfect community will look like on this side of eternity, I think.
00:31:47:23 – 00:31:50:05
Alycia
Yeah.
00:31:50:05 – 00:33:15:17
Lou
So tell – can I say, I know we’re out of time too, just back to that original question like, “If the Holy Spirit is real, why are Christians the worst?” You’re going to find that frustration with every group of people. And I want to say that, but the reason why it’s so almost like, tangible with Christians is you’re actually holding Christians to the standard in which they’re supposed to be held to. And if we’re falling short of that standard, that doesn’t actually diminish that standard. Because there’s something appealing about that standard. That’s why you’re so angry right now with Christians, because they’re not – because this thing that they’re supposed to be living by, they’re not going to. So, in your frustration to it, which is legitimate, because I’ve been there and I’ve been a part of that problem, I just want to challenge you then, okay, so why is that standard beautiful? Who is that standard based on? Is Christ, the very thing that Alycia just read in Galatians, does He do this well? And I think if you are in Christian community long enough, you will see that. You’ll see it and you’ll see it in all of its beauty. And it’s easy to make a caricature of His bride and the Church, but there’s a lot of good that’s been going on and there are faithful men and women for millennia now that have been slowly being sanctified in modeling those fruits of the spirit and beautiful ways. And I’m indebted to those people. So I just want to challenge you, like, don’t let these abuses change your view of the beauty of what God is doing in and through people because it is happening.
00:33:15:23 – 00:33:48:18
Derek
Yeah, yeah. Great. Awesome. Well, thank you, guys. Again, we hope that you all learned a lot today. And this is obviously a tough, tough question that we all struggle with. I know I struggle with it because there have been times where I’ve been the worst. So, I know what this is like. Feel free to comment, like, subscribe, share all those good things. And yeah, if you’d like your questions answered on the show, just email us at WhereWeBegin@LightenGroup.org and we’ll see you next week. Take care.
00:33:48:18 – 00:34:01:22
Derek
Thanks for joining us. Be sure to check out our Facebook and Instagram by Searching: Lighten Group. And if you want to know more about what we do or support us financially, please visit our website at LightenGroup.org.
