In today’s episode, the group talks about the differences between the payment for and the forgiveness of sin, its impact on our lives and our relationships, and how God sees it and how God heals it.
References:
- Hebrews 10:4
- Octavius Winslow – 19th Century Evangelical Preacher in England and America
Transcript – If God Requires Payment For Sin, How Is It Forgiveness?
WWB S2E6 TRANSCRIPT
00:00:00:02 – 00:00:19:15
Derek
If God required payment for sins, how is it forgiveness? Today on Where We Begin.
00:00:25:17 – 00:00:47:18
Derek
Welcome back to Where We Begin: a podcast that answers some of the toughest objections to Christianity today. I’m your host, Derek Caldwell, joined once again by Alycia Wood, Lou Phillips, and Xandra Carroll. I will say that’s the most comfortable I’ve ever been saying your names. Every time I do that, I am seriously afraid I’m going to forget one of your names because it’s very much like me.
00:00:48:00 – 00:00:57:16
Derek
I can know something and right before I have to say it, in some sort of like sub… kind of publicly, I go blank. So, that felt good. So I guess I’m getting more comfortable.
00:00:58:04 – 00:01:14:03
Alycia
Yeah, that’s good. Because you’re the only one here who is comfortable because we’re all very nervous about what you’re going to ask us today. For those of you who don’t know, we get, like, a general idea of what he’s going to say but we don’t know the specific question until it comes out of his mouth. And so the general idea has us pretty spooked out. So we’ll see what happens. Glad you’re comfortable though, Derek. I mean, that’s all that’s important.
00:01:14:05 – 00:01:21:16
Derek
Thank you. Yeah, I got my little cardigan on. I’m very comfortable. You might notice this from the website. Same outfit. Bringing it back.
00:01:22:06 – 00:01:23:12
Xandra
Wow, nice.
00:01:23:13 – 00:01:42:03
Derek
Yeah. So a little Easter egg for all of the longtime fans who’ve been with us since all the way back in the beginning, a few months ago. Well, I was going to – so let’s start off today. I just want to see what is your idea? Don’t think about the theology right now –
00:01:42:03 – 00:01:43:04
Alycia
Okay.
00:01:43:04 – 00:02:02:21
Derek
Think about, first, a time in your life that you forgave someone or they forgave you and it just like feel like, what was that? What is forgiveness to you, I guess? What does that look like, actually, in like real everyday life?
00:02:02:21 – 00:02:37:14
Xandra
I think a big part of it for me, though, I know this is not going to be accurate but, is the restoring of the relationship is a really special thing. But I know sometimes you have to forgive someone that’s, like, you’ll never see again. Like, I’ve had to forgive people who were like dead, you know? Like. I’ve had to cancel their debt because I still had this pain from things that happened. So, I mean, that person, you know, isn’t even alive to reconcile with. But yeah, I think for me, one of the sweetest parts of forgiveness is being able to reconcile with a brother or sister.
00:02:37:23 – 00:03:09:16
Lou
I feel like the burden of whatever it was, whether it is insult, whether it was something you broke, whether it – like, it can be so many different versions of what does it mean to be forgiven? But like, the burden of that loss being taken away from you. I’m saying as someone has received forgiveness, not the one giving the forgiveness, and that’s where my mind went there. It was a really – it’s a really beautiful thing to not feel that weight of my wrong anymore. But then someone would take that from me and saying you don’t have to carry that anymore.
00:03:10:22 – 00:03:50:06
Alycia
Yeah, and I think for me, forgiveness is – it is. It’s letting the people go from the consequence of whatever they’ve done to me just to kind of just – and I think that’s what makes it hard is because it’s hard for us to move on oftentimes. And like Xandra said, like some of those people die, you never see them again, and you don’t feel like you can even have that final closure. And it’s that letting go, which I think can be so hard even when people don’t apologize. So, I think it’s for me, it’s it’s definitely that aspect of this is what’s happened, here is where I’m going to release you from. I’m just going to release the situation. Whatever may happen, as an outcome, will happen. But I’m just going to let it go and I’m going to move on.
00:03:50:11 – 00:04:20:12
Lou
That’s interesting we all – like, how did you – did you say, yeah, forgiving others? I immediately go – but when you bring up, I remember – I think of being forgiven versus forgiving others because in many ways, and I think it probably has to do with your own life experience. Like, how many times have I had to really forgive? And like, obviously we’ve all been harmed, but like I don’t have many experiences where I’m thinking, man, I’m really struggling to forgive this person. But yeah, I just – it’s just interesting to see how we all answered that differently.
00:04:21:00 – 00:04:22:12
Xandra
It just means you’re a way more forgiving person than I am.
00:04:22:17 – 00:04:25:12
Lou
No, no. I don’t – no. I think it actually has to do with –
00:04:25:14 – 00:04:26:13
Derek
It serves a point he’s trying to make.
00:04:26:16 – 00:04:45:17
Lou
No, I think it has to do with, like, sometimes, yeah. I mean, some people have gone through lives or gone through life without a lot of significant harm in that way. And I would say much of my life has not been that, which is a huge blessing. But it’s also yeah, it’s just interesting to see where our minds go when you hear forgiveness. Because I think of all the ways I’ve like, I’ve needed it.
00:04:45:17 – 00:04:46:18
Xandra
Well, it goes both ways. Like, for everyone.
00:04:46:18 – 00:04:48:02
Lou
It does, yeah. No, For sure.
00:04:48:02 – 00:04:56:15
Xandra
And it’s so, it feels so different depending on which side of it you’re on. If you’re being forgiven, versus if you’re the person who’s forgiving, it’s very different.
00:04:56:15 – 00:05:01:17
Lou
Well, the worst Is not being given forgiveness when you ask for it.
00:05:01:19 – 00:05:02:03
Derek
Yeah.
00:05:02:11 – 00:05:08:11
Lou
That’s – I think that’s hell. That’s awful. Sorry, keep going.
00:05:08:17 – 00:06:19:18
Derek
Well, no, but it’s interesting. So I think from the perspective of when you are giving forgiveness, it’s almost like when you are asking for forgiveness, you’re sort of willing to – when you’re genuinely asking – you’re willing to do something for it. But when we’re talking about, as Christians, giving forgiveness, what I kind of get – like Xandra, you even talked about like forgiveness for people who aren’t here anymore? Like, they can’t give you anything. So that’s interesting because the question that we got today can sort of be seen as almost a follow up from our episode last season on “Why Did Jesus Have to Die?” Because the way we’ve described forgiveness, to some people, that doesn’t look like what’s going on in the Gospel account. Because this person asked this, “If God required payment for sins, how is it forgiveness?” And so that’s kind of the main question we’re wrestling with today. How is that forgiveness? Even if there is, you know, oh, there’s this there needs to be a sacrifice. How is that actually – something still has to be done?
00:06:20:12 – 00:07:04:14
Lou
I mean, I’d say very quickly, I understand what the person is coming from, but I think it’s a misunderstanding of what forgiveness is, because forgiveness is costly every time. And we don’t think of it that way because, yeah. For example, if I, you know, whatever, maybe I spilled coffee or something on Alycia’s jeans and it stained them or whatever. If she were to forgive me, the cost is actually on her. Because what, she’s now out of a pair of jeans, right? So there is a cost. And for little things like that, we don’t think of it. But because there’s a form of payment there, I don’t think that that negates the fact that it’s forgiveness. There’s always some type of cost to forgiveness. This one’s just unique in what it’s referring to, what is the –
00:07:04:19 – 00:07:39:08
Derek
Yeah, so that’s the interesting – So I think that’s a good place to kind of stop and think about for a second because a visual image like that will make a lot more sense. But when we’re talking about sin, it’s almost like sin is this immaterial thing that – what could be paid for. So maybe we could talk, like what, describe like – in the Bible, what is this thing called sin? I guess, like, what does it do? What are some of the images used to describe it that could kind of get to some of that visualization? I think that Lou is getting to.
00:07:39:10 – 00:08:12:06
Xandra
It’s oftentimes described as a stain or a blemish. I think about the, you know, though your sins are like scarlet, they’ll be washed white as snow. So they’re often like a mark that really changes you that’s visible to the world. That’s how it’s often described in the Old Testament anyway. And I have a lot of other thoughts about some but I’m just thinking about biblical examples of imagery. And that’s the first thing that came to my mind.
00:08:12:06 – 00:08:12:14
Derek
Yeah.
00:08:14:04 – 00:08:28:09
Alycia
I mean, I think that’s fair. I think sin is living contrary to the way that God designs us. Living, thinking, speaking, acting, whatever you want to put in there, contrary to the way that God designed. Basically the opposite of him.
00:08:29:01 – 00:08:32:14
Derek
Yeah, what would you say it does? I guess maybe what –
00:08:32:14 – 00:08:33:12
Lou
It destroys.
00:08:33:12 – 00:08:36:14
Derek
Yeah.
00:08:36:14 – 00:09:42:02
Lou
Like, I think the results of sin from, as the garden, since Genesis 3, you see – I mean that’s the birth, it ushers in everything that is so broken right now. It ushers in deceit, it ushers in destruction and lying. And you take those things individually, you know, that’s not that big of a deal, but then you put that on an Nth amount of time, because all of us are doing it, and it truly destroys. It destroys relationships. It’s destroying – and we talked about this before I think in another podcast about just like God created a covenant with the Earth because of man’s betrayal of God. Like everything, sin doesn’t just involve the biological, the spiritual, it involves every aspect. And the end result of it, I mean, this is – I don’t know if we’re going to go there into Romans, is like the wages of sin is death. It ushered in death, I think more than anything, a type of spiritual death. But it also ushered in all this other type of destruction and death that we see every single day.
00:09:43:01 – 00:09:43:08
Derek
Yeah.
00:09:43:17 – 00:11:26:06
Xandra
And I also think in terms – because your new question is ‘what does it do?’ not ‘what does it look like?’ And I think of sin as almost like a double punch, like, because according to the scriptures, you are born sinful. And I know this is a really unpopular belief and an unpopular claim, but you’re born into this way. It’s almost like our heritage. It’s almost like the sin that entered in with Adam was written into our spiritual DNA, and it’s like genetically, spiritually passed down to all of us. And we’re part of this line, this heritage of sin, you know, like, we’re born in sin. And so there’s that level. But then there’s the other side, which is, you know, the volitional will that engages with sin. You know, because the Bible says that we have got three adversaries that plague us throughout life, you know, the world, the flesh and the devil. And those three things are always coming against us. And so sometimes that sin is coming from our own selves, it’s our own flesh, our own sinful nature, and other times it’s coming from outside. There’s something enticing you. Maybe it’s the world, or maybe it’s a person, or maybe it’s, you know, Satan. I don’t know exactly how that works, but you know, with the differences there and sometimes like he uses people, I don’t know. But all that to say, it’s so multifaceted. This order of sin, or should I say this disorder of sin, has completely changed our nature and it’s completely changed our reality. And I think it inhibits us from being human. I think sin keeps us from being the human beings we were meant to be completely.
00:11:26:06 – 00:11:26:13
Alycia
Yeah.
00:11:27:16 – 00:12:51:00
Derek
Yeah. That’s – it is this sort of I mean, after hearing all of that, you can easily see, like, you start getting this almost this suffocating feeling of there is no escaping this, there’s no way out, like sin is around us, we’re going to do it. There’s I mean, this is the Romans 7 type of thing. Like, even if you didn’t want to, you do it anyway and you don’t know why, a lot of the times it just happens. And I get – real quick though, I do want to because one of the questions that we do get a lot is, you know, there is like this weird stuff in the Bible. It’s very weird based on kind of where we are today. Christ’s sacrifice ended sacrifices. But there’s still the question of what were sacrifices for, how did they work? So just real quick, if we like – just to kind of think through this because it might come in handy later, too, when we think about some of these like transactions. Okay, so we get everything we’ve just heard about sin. What does – so there was this sin management system sort of in the Old Testament, how does that, the shedding of blood, how does that forgive people of sins? I guess what’s sort of going on there?
00:12:51:00 – 00:13:07:03
Xandra
I – oh, did you have a thought? I feel like I’ve talked a lot. So, I have a view that maybe some people here might disagree with. And I actually looked this up when you very first read the question and could you actually read the question one more time? Because I want to make sure that this applies.
00:13:07:09 – 00:13:10:19
Derek
If God required payment for sins, how is it forgiveness?
00:13:11:01 – 00:15:14:08
Xandra
Yes. Okay, great. So this does apply to that. So what I looked up right after you read that is Hebrews 10 verse 4 and it says this, “For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.” So then that leads us to ask, well, why this order? Right? Why this order of, you know, you do this and then here’s what you have to sacrifice. You do something small, you have to sacrifice a dove. You do something huge, you have to sacrifice a bull or something like that. So why instate that order if this is true? It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. See, my view and feel free to push back on me, but my view is that it didn’t actually take away sins at all. I think it was meant for something deeper, something bigger. I think it was showing the people of God what their sin was, which was so huge. Like the bigger the sin, the bigger the atonement. And how can you atone for a sin that you were born into which completely changes you ontologically? You can’t. You need an eternal God. And it was all, I think, pointing to Christ in the same way that like – you know, like, my nephew right now, he’s learning counting and he’s learning numbers. And so his parents bought him this little, like, money changer machine. It’s got the little colorful coins and everything, and he puts them in the slots and it’s helping him learn how to count and helping him to learn how to, like, use money. But it’s not real money. It’s just pretend. But it’s preparing him for later in life because there is something real and he’s going to have to understand that concept. And in the same way, this is almost like maybe it’s a bad analogy, I’m not sure, but it’s almost teaching the people of God this is what the exchange looks like. To prepare them for what’s coming, the coming of the Messiah who actually atones for everyone: past, present and future. Not just – so I don’t think that the blood, in that sacrificial system, actually atoned for people. But again, as I said, please feel free to push back on me.
00:15:15:05 – 00:15:18:18
Alycia
No, I think you’re absolutely, I mean, I think you’re absolutely right. I mean it’s not –
00:15:18:18 – 00:15:21:02
Derek
So it is called Day of Atonement, though.
00:15:21:13 – 00:15:23:06
Alycia
It is called Day of Atonement.
00:15:23:06 – 00:16:01:04
Derek
So I think that is like a thing to kind of – before we’re – clearly it was incomplete and there needed to be more because Jesus had to come. But there is kind of a wrestling with. There is a sense that the blood has to kind of cover the temple and cleanse the temple. Kind of take the stain out of things that have happened and sins are put on a scapegoat, and that scapegoat is sent out to Azazel, which may be some – that’s a weird one to talk about, but, so it’s sort of – it’s doing something, I think, to your point, yeah, it’s clearly not taking away the sins of the world. But yeah, what – I guess that would – I just wanted to say that real quick.
00:16:01:08 – 00:18:36:15
Alycia
No, that’s fine because that was some of the direction that I was going in as well. I mean, and I think part of our challenge with a lot of this stuff, too, is once again, that we don’t understand the gravity of sin. A lot of these questions we ask about sin are questions that we ask – the people then, when a lot of these blood sacrifice things are happening, would never have asked any of these questions. They just understood how wrong they were because of their actions. And so, yeah, I mean and so wrong that something had to die. Like, that correlation was not missed. And, the ironic thing is, and Xandra you’ve alluded to this a bit in terms of that it wasn’t enough. But the ironic thing is that the high priests who went in to make these sacrifices had to first cleanse himself. He wasn’t even clean enough to go in and make the sacrifices. But either way, the blood, yes the blood, is sprinkled in it. Sprinkled in essentially the presence of God. It’s on the ark. It’s where God is. Like, the blood has to be brought to him to be a way of bringing us back, of uniting us back with him. And in a sense, I still think there’s definitely this massive symbolic element, because obviously an animal can’t bring us back to God, but there is this idea where the blood – that where life is a cost for the death of sin. And so you have this lamb and coming into the blood, being shed in the presence of God. And that is enough for him to say, okay, I am going to not let your life be the cost now for what’s happening. And yes, of course, it’s pointing to Jesus and the future. But I think the blood is key and I think we see this with the Passover stuff, with the blood there and I think we see it all around where whenever there’s an exchange, the blood is part of the exchange. We see this with Abraham and Isaac, where instead of Isaac being sacrificed, there’s a ram. Like, there’s shedding of blood, there’s death, there’s all of these things that are ultimately essential. Which is getting back to the first question, which I won’t jump ahead too much, but if you know, where is the room for forgiveness? It’s because forgiveness does not mean absolution of cost or penalty or consequence, right? So if somebody comes to my house and breaks into my house, I can forgive them. But the state is still going to handle the consequence and there isn’t an injustice in there. And so we can get to that in a bit. But so I guess I just I think what the blood ultimately did is it demonstrated that life will be lost in order to gain life because of the death that was caused, because of what you’ve done. And I think ultimately that’s obviously pointing through where Jesus actually is the final lamb.
00:18:36:20 – 00:21:08:06
Lou
Can I say something too, Derek? Like, so in talking about this understanding of animal sacrifices and where this came in within Scripture and in the storyline of as what we believe as Christians it’s like, you have to understand. This system gets into place after the tabernacle is here and the tabernacle is God’s dwelling place here on this earth. And what’s he doing? It’s I’m now residing with my people. I cannot reside, I’m so holy, I cannot reside in a place that is not holy. So, there’s a bit of symbology, yeah, symbology going on there. He’s trying to explain the difference of who he is in light of who we are and what sin actually is. And so, and what was the point? Like, because the real point of why do we need the forgiveness of sins? Ultimately, to be in relationship with God. To be reconciled back to our creator. And this is why this matters. This is why we’re doing it. But that – we need to understand this is not, this – because we know that sacrificing animals is not just something that Jews were doing. Like, this was happening all around. The pagans, other cultures were doing this. The difference between, at least my understanding of what scriptures describing versus what all of these other ones are describing is here are a bunch of gods who are very angry with whatever they created and to appease their anger, it’s like, burn something like or feed me, right? Whatever. It’s actually, it’s a very like, you must do this because I’m angry. You need to calm me down or something like that. Where this one actually seems like God’s trying to dwell with and he’s saying, here’s a way for me to continue dwelling with you. And that’s actually what we’re craving as Christians. This is why we’re – God, we want to dwell with God. We want to be reconciled back to our Creator. And this was the way in which that was the case. Because ultimately, and I know we’ve talked about this before, like why is the result of sin death? Like, why are the wages of sin death? Like, could God have made it another way? I don’t know. But to me it still makes sense as to why the wages of sin would be death if ultimately there is a severing of relationship with God who is the author of life and where all goodness flows. Like, we saw in Genesis, like, what was the thing that happened? Surely the day that you eat of this. you will die. And what’s he talking about? What’s going on there? And then we see the destruction that’s happening. So that’s why and I don’t know if that’s – I don’t know.
00:21:08:12 – 00:22:31:02
Alycia
I would just say, yeah. I just think it answered that question. Like, why would the penalty of what we do wrong and our failures be death? I think that’s actually God’s mercy. I actually – that’s my two thoughts on that. It’s just I think either – imagine if God let us live eternally in a place where the consequences of what we do wrong are just around us all the time and we can never get out of it. Like you can continually hurt somebody, you can continually beat somebody, you can continually destroy somebody and death is never an option. Death puts a finality on it. Right now, obviously as – so I guess what I’m saying is, as I’m like externally processing all this out is, you know, had these things – had we stayed in line with where God wanted us to be, then we wouldn’t have needed it. We would’ve been in a great relationship with him. But the minute that relationship is broken and, it’s like, now we can either live in that state in a permanent broken relation with God, which we talk about when we talk about things like hell, or we put an end to it, right? And so, you know, so at least there’s a sense in which you will at least only be here in this broken state, this spiritual disconnection with God that’s been lost. But also physically, you will experience death so that this is not your eternal state. It can actually be something different. So I actually see it as his mercy, to be honest.
00:22:31:02 – 00:24:45:13
Derek
Yeah. And I think, yeah, I need to plan these out a little better because I get really excited about certain things and realize, oh, we’re out of time and we haven’t actually answered the main question. But yeah, because I haven’t asked it yet. So, that’s not on you. That’s on me. But it is. But yeah, so, we’ve kind of established the seriousness of sin. And that’s important because I think when people talk about this, it’s almost as if, eh, just forgive it and you know. But that doesn’t really honor the pain that people have gone through and it doesn’t honor even the what is sort of owed God in these situations and and how we’ve hurt his creation and his children. But there are a couple things that we can talk about. The question actually mentions payment, which I think is the perfect word to use here, because we’re talking about, you know, there are scenes in the Old Testament of debt slavery. There are themes in the Old Testament of rescue from tyrannical overlords like in The Exodus. And Christ is killed on the Passover, which is fascinating. There’s still like atoning parts there, but it seems like the main theme is sort of this rescuing Passover Theme. So it’s a rescuing from slavery. So it seems like that comes up time and time again, this debt, this slavery. So in that sense, then, you know, I think when we have an understanding of debt slavery, then you sort of see, oh yeah, you can’t just get out of something to be released from debt. Someone can offer to sort of pay your debt. And so maybe, like, we can talk about that a little bit too because that’s one of the other things that actually, you know, in the New Testament and the Old Testament, sin is described as debt. You know, forgive us our debt or trespasses, it uses both, you know. Yeah. So I guess what would you kind of say to that? Because he’s kind of asking in this very transactional way, which I think is fascinating, that he kind of he’s getting something there, but not quite sure how to tie it together.
00:24:46:17 – 00:24:48:16
Alycia
Can you read the original one again? The original question?
00:24:48:19 – 00:24:52:22
Derek
Yeah. If God required payment for sins, how is it forgiveness?
00:24:53:12 – 00:26:52:16
Alycia
Right. And I think that there’s multiple things that actually happen, right? I don’t think that Jesus’ death on the cross was only about forgiveness. And I think that’s part of the challenge here is we’re saying it’s either payment or it’s forgiveness. And I actually think there’s multiple things happening on the cross. I think it’s God showing us, not just in words but also in action, that I love you. Which is unique to Christianity because in other faiths, God is not going to show you that he loves you. You just know he loves you because he says it. That’s all you got. But here God shows you that he loves you. Also, I think it is forgiveness. I think it’s also him taking on our shame and humiliation, almost like the woman in the act of adultery, where Jesus almost protected her from the religious people that were publicly humiliating her and almost like he covered her. Like, I get that you’ve messed up, but I’m here with you in your pain. I think it’s also about judgment. Like, there is this – these things have to be dealt with. No judge is a good judge if all they do is say, oh, I’ll just forgive you for stealing this person’s TV, right? So there also has to be, I mean, somebody has to die. The penalty for – because these things are so bad and I know this is so hard for us to get in our modern era because we just mess up and we say, Oh, my bad. But really, actually it’s serious. It’s actually way more serious. But we live on this side of the cross, we’ve lost the gravity of sin. But it is so bad that something has to pay. So there’s also a death there and a forgiveness. But yes, getting back to this slavery thing, when you think about Old Testament slavery and you think about this indentured servitude, where somebody owed somebody a debt and they couldn’t pay it. So essentially they worked it off for a certain amount of time. So, but the idea of there being a debt that couldn’t be paid is there and what do we have to give God to offer God for what we’ve done? Like, how can we pay him back for violating his thing? I mean, can I give him money? He doesn’t want a piece of paper with pictures of dead presidents on it. Like, that doesn’t mean anything to him, right?
00:26:52:19 – 00:26:53:22
Derek
I will take money. But yes, God does not need it.
00:26:53:22 – 00:28:06:20
Alycia
Ok, Derek will take it. He doesn’t want that. Like, I mean, I can do a bunch of really, really good things, but that doesn’t disqualify the negative things I’ve done. Like the child who hits the brother and then tries to behave for the rest of the day. It doesn’t disqualify the bad. There’s nothing that I can do. There is this debt that I can’t pay. And so the cross is also God coming in and saying, I will step in and I will pay, once again, that death for you. So I think that there’s multiple things. And so that’s why I think we can have sacrifice, we can have judgment, we can have forgiveness, we can have all of these things combined on the cross and have it all be consistent. Because whatever God does, he can’t betray other aspects of his character. So he can’t make a decision where he’s no longer merciful. Or he can’t make a decision where somehow he is lacking in moral perfection or something. Like everything he does has to be – his full character has to be able to be consistent and not betrayed in any way. And so that’s why I think what happens on the cross is so beautiful because it allows for forgiveness and mercy and judgment and all of these things. Grace and love and demonstration of all of these things that happen in kind of one place and in one situation. So I don’t know if that fully gets to it, but that’s kind of how I see that those multiple aspects can happen at the same time.
00:28:06:20 – 00:28:07:05
Xandra
Yeah.
00:28:07:18 – 00:28:33:10
Derek
Yeah. No, I love that. I mean, the early church talked about this stuff that, you know, we often have like, oh, here’s this theory of atonement. That’s correct. Here’s this theory of atonement. That’s correct. And they talked about it, I mean, called it a multifaceted jewel. Like, there’s just all these things that, like, all kind of sparkled together. But you know, you have to kind of view them all together to see the sparkle. If you can’t see the sparkle, you’re too close looking at one of them. Just kind of a fascinating –
00:28:33:15 – 00:28:55:02
Lou
To your point, Alycia, because I’m just thinking that maybe the person that is listening, that’s just like, I just don’t understand why the severity – I don’t understand the severity of it. And I think that’s a very reasonable thing to have because, again, our only lived experience is here. It’s with other people and we don’t see just as severe a consequence.
00:28:55:02 – 00:29:15:11
Lou
And I think what’s helped me, someone gave me the experience, or the example of, like, sin has a lot more to do with who it is against versus what you’ve done. And an example would be this, like, if, Derek, if I just got up right now and I smacked you across the face, like, what would happen? We’d maybe get in a fight, I’d probably win, and then it would be over.
00:29:15:11 – 00:29:19:01
Lou
There’s nothing else after that, right? No, there’s not many consequences there.
00:29:19:01 – 00:29:20:03
Derek
We’re in the realm of myth, now.
00:29:20:10 – 00:29:35:07
Lou
Let’s say I actually get out of this building and I go smack a police officer. What’s going to happen? Maybe some jail time? Say I smack the President of the United States or say I smack someone even more important? What happens? What if metaphorically, like, you smack the God of the universe?
00:29:35:17 – 00:29:50:06
Lou
I’m doing the very same act every time. Why is the consequence more? Because it’s about who you went against. If God really is who he says he is, if he really is this being creator, to your point, how do you repay? Like, what’s the cost of assaulting God?
00:29:50:17 – 00:29:58:01
Derek
That’s the thing too. When you slap someone with his image on them. That’s why it is an offense against him.
00:29:58:02 – 00:29:58:14
Alycia
Him.
00:29:59:16 – 00:30:02:18
Derek
Because he cares deeply about us. Yeah, yeah.
00:30:03:00 – 00:30:03:19
Xandra
And as you, oh go ahead.
00:30:04:03 – 00:30:40:17
Lou
No, no, I was just saying, I just wanted – because I get it. I get why this is still – it seems harsh. But I think again, it’s because we make God into our own image all the time. We want him to be simply another human being. And so when he’s kind of otherly than that, it gets problematic. It’s like, well, that’s not fair. It’s like, well, actually – what’s not fair is like why we even have a shot, in my mind? It’s like, in light of my own sin, why would I even have – how do I have the audacity to think I may be reconciled back to him? Why am I owed that? I’m not owed that. And yet he willingly offers. That’s the beauty of the cross.
00:30:40:17 – 00:32:31:19
Xandra
Yeah, I was just going to say, you said something earlier, Lou, that I thought was really good. You said love costs. And I get really frustrated when people say love is free, love is free. It doesn’t cost anything to love anybody. You know, I think, have you ever really loved someone? Have you ever really opened your heart to them and they’ve hurt you at the deepest core of your being and you have forgiven them and continue to love them? That kind of love is intense and raw and it is costly. It is extremely expensive. And going back to Alycia’s analogy, which I loved about the judge and the television, like God was that judge who loved us enough to pay for everything. Not only was he just, but he’s the one who paid for the TV or whatever. But he did that with his own life because it wasn’t a television. It was existence itself that had to be repaired. And only an eternal, transcendental, loving God could ever repay that kind of debt. And so was it Oslo or what was his name? Winslow. What’s his first name? Winslow. Theologian, who basically said, you know, when we look at the cross, when we look at the death of Christ, it wasn’t actually Judas who handed him over for greed. It wasn’t actually the Romans who crucified him, you know, because he was an insurgent or whatever. It wasn’t even the Jews who handed him over because of his supposed blasphemy. It was the Father who handed him over because of love. It was all because of love. Love is incredibly costly and the level of love that connects us to God is a level that can only be repaired by God himself. And He did that for us.
00:32:31:22 – 00:33:07:17
Derek
Yeah. Well, I’m not going to be able to say anything better than that. So, we’re going to wrap up. Thank you all. That was great. It was a little bit of a longer one today, that’s my fault. But I think it was a good thing because it’s a lot to unpack here. So yeah, thank you, guys. Yeah, thank you for joining us. Please like, subscribe, share, rate, all those wonderful things. And if you want your questions answered on the podcast, you can email us at WhereWeBegin@LightenGroup.org. God bless you guys. Bye.
00:33:07:17 – 00:33:12:13
Derek
Thanks for joining us. Be sure to check out our Facebook and Instagram by searching: Lighten Group.
00:33:12:23 – 00:33:20:20
Derek
And if you want to know more about what we do or support us financially, please visit our website at LightenGroup.org.
