Does God love non-believers? In today’s episode, the group looks at this question. How can God love all people if not everyone believes He exists and how does that love change the way we interact with the people in our everyday life?
References:
- Psalm 11:5
- Hosea 4:6
- Matthew 5:43-45
- Romans 9:13
Transcript: Does God Love Non-Believers?
WWB S2E7 TRANSCRIPT
00:00:00:02 – 00:00:17:20
Derek
Does God love non-believers? Today on Where We Begin.
00:00:23:02 – 00:00:39:08
Derek
Welcome back to Where We Begin: a podcast that answers some of the toughest objections to Christianity today. It’s Derek again. Sorry about that. And I’m joined by Alycia Wood, Lou Phillips and Xandra Carroll. Hey, gang. How’s it going?
00:00:39:09 – 00:00:40:05
Alycia
Hey.
00:00:40:15 – 00:00:42:11
Derek
Fam, I heard that one recently.
00:00:42:11 – 00:00:43:00
Alycia
You didn’t forget our names. That’s good.
00:00:43:00 – 00:00:44:08
Derek
That’s good. I’m so –
00:00:45:05 – 00:00:47:03
Lou
Derek, I heard today’s your birthday.
00:00:48:10 – 00:00:53:05
Derek
Yeah. When will this air? No, I wish.
00:00:53:22 – 00:00:55:08
Lou
I think we should sing you “Happy Birthday.”
00:00:55:08 – 00:00:56:11
Derek
Okay.
00:00:56:11 – 00:00:57:04
Lou
Is there a pitch you prefer it in?
00:00:57:04 – 00:00:58:12
Derek
Now, are you saying that –
00:00:58:12 – 00:01:00:07
Xandra
Only if we throw a ‘cha cha cha’ in the middle of each –
00:01:00:10 – 00:01:05:08
Derek
Are you saying that you want to do that because that’s something you would do for your friends and we’re friends?
00:01:05:08 – 00:01:05:20
Alycia
Oh.
00:01:06:07 – 00:01:07:01
Lou
Yeah, sure.
00:01:07:03 – 00:01:07:20
Derek
This got deep.
00:01:08:04 – 00:01:08:20
Xandra
Whoa.
00:01:09:06 – 00:01:13:02
Derek
You know, Lou sent me – this is actually relevant to what we’re going to be talking about.
00:01:13:02 – 00:01:13:12
Lou
Oh, great.
00:01:13:12 – 00:01:34:20
Derek
So I’m glad you brought it up. Lou and I have a complicated relationship. And, no, he sent me this screenshot recently. It actually is – I have it here. I planned on bringing it up. Yeah. And it was from Twitter and I’ll just read it to you and it’ll be perfectly summed up.
00:01:36:02 – 00:01:46:06
Derek
Someone wrote this on Twitter and they said, Does anyone else have those friends who you jokingly insult all the time until at some point you just straight up don’t even know how to be nice to each other anymore?
00:01:46:23 – 00:01:48:17
Alycia
Oh, that is perfect.
00:01:48:23 – 00:01:49:09
Lou
It is.
00:01:50:17 – 00:01:52:23
Xandra
I’m sad. I’m sad.
00:01:52:23 – 00:01:58:17
Derek
No, it’s like it’s – but it’s love, though. You know that the hatred is the love and that if he was nice to me –
00:01:58:17 – 00:02:00:02
Lou
Now I know where we’re going.
00:02:00:02 – 00:02:01:12
Derek
I would know that, you know, you see?
00:02:01:12 – 00:02:03:00
Lou
This love. Okay, well.
00:02:03:00 – 00:02:06:11
Derek
Segue. Or is it? I mean, that is the question.
00:02:06:11 – 00:02:08:12
Xandra
I don’t get it? What are we talking about?
00:02:08:12 – 00:02:10:23
Alycia
I hope he’s not alluding to the question. Great.
00:02:11:00 – 00:02:12:16
Derek
The question is, today –
00:02:13:04 – 00:02:16:03
Lou
I don’t hate Derek. I love him.
00:02:16:16 – 00:02:17:00
Derek
Oh, ok.
00:02:18:01 – 00:02:19:06
Xandra
But you act like you hate him.
00:02:21:00 – 00:03:18:10
Derek
Oh, yeah. He’s saying he loves me. So it’s the opposite. Yeah, all right. We’ll figure it out after the episode. But today we’re asking the question, “Does God love non-believers?” So obviously, there’s sort of – and we’ll get into this. There’s sort of like a more general question. There is – we’ve talked on the podcast before about some of the differences between, you know Reformed, Arminian, Lutheran, like Catholic, Orthodox, like there’s all these different ways that people wrestle with that. And we may touch on that a little bit, but that’s not really kind of the point of this episode. But it might just kind of naturally come up because it has to, but – I guess first, you know, when we talk about kind of honoring these questions, boy this one really troubles people. Have you received this a lot in your your talks? Because I would imagine this comes up a lot.
00:03:19:08 – 00:03:22:20
Lou
Yeah, I’ve definitely heard it. Because I think it’s really the question is, “Does God love me?”
00:03:23:09 – 00:03:23:17
Derek
Yeah.
00:03:24:08 – 00:03:35:03
Lou
And that’s, I mean, that’s the heart of it. Or does God love this person that I absolutely love who does not know him? Because it seems like if he loved them, there wouldn’t be this.
00:03:35:03 – 00:03:36:02
Derek
Why won’t he answer them?
00:03:36:02 – 00:03:45:09
Lou
Yeah, why won’t he answer them? Why? Why is there the potential that they could spend an eternity away from him? Like, it’s a very real question that I think I get it pretty consistently.
00:03:45:09 – 00:05:10:04
Derek
Yeah. Well, in that, you know, we’ve talked about this before, Lou, that analogy of viewing God as a parent. What parent would allow their child to, you know, do things that aren’t like, yeah. There is a sense in which you sort of – you have to give freedom to children. But you wouldn’t just sort of let them go run into the street because, Well, it’s they’re, well – I feel like we’re starting to talk about a different question. So we’ll have to bring that one. But that’s more of a sovereignty question. But, yeah, so it is a difficult one. And so I just want to first, maybe we can talk about – well we’re going to get into some actual passages. But first, in general, the Bible does use the word ‘hate’ as if it’s coming from God towards people. What are some of the ways that you understand that word, you know, contextually? Is it – you know, there is this fancy word anthropopathic, you know, is it really just applying to God a human emotion that it’s not quite what’s going on? Does God actually feel hate? What is going on there? Because it is kind of strange when you read something that says, God loved the whole world. For God so loved the world. Well, that seems to cover everyone.
00:05:10:19 – 00:05:14:16
Lou
Yeah.
00:05:14:16 – 00:05:17:10
Xandra
If I could hazard a start, I’m very –
00:05:18:01 – 00:05:20:07
Lou
We’ll come up as a cleanup crew. Just start.
00:05:20:07 – 00:07:11:11
Xandra
A mild, timid start. I’ll be the least heretical as possible and you can swoop in and save me, both of you, afterwards. But yeah, when I read passages like that, you know, Jacob, I loved. Esau, I hated. Things like that. Or even in the New Testament, examples of that word being used. You know, unless I hate my mother and father and whatever and turn and follow Jesus. Did he mean he was meant for me to despise them? Where we know that there’s a Commandment that I’m supposed to honor my mother and father. So it does, I think on the offset, seem like there’s maybe a contradiction between, you know, okay, you’re supposed to hate, but then there’s also love. He’s a God who loves everyone. We know that God loves everyone. He loves the world. As you said, John 3:16. God loves the whole world. So when I read that, I think it often comes up, especially in the Old Testament, more in terms of acceptance and rejection. So with Jacob and Esau, it could be that Jacob, this is one interpretation, but that he was accepting the offering of Jacob and rejecting from Esau. Because, as we remember, there was – that whole thing was very confusing and convoluted and things. But there’s certainly something that pleases God that he accepts, which is sort of like a covenantal love, and then maybe something that he rejects, like he – there’s a wicked nation and it says he hates that nation. So, yeah, I think there are different levels of – well, I could go on, but I think I’m actually going to stop there because I might go into territory that I haven’t read up on very much yet. And I want to let you guys also add your thoughts.
00:07:11:12 – 00:10:47:03
Lou
I mean, I think the initial thing is, yeah, it looks like there’s a contradiction in Scripture because it seems like he says, no, for God so loved The World that he gave. But then why in the world does it say he abhors certain things. Or yeah, that specifically the word hate is translated. And this is where some people will probably just argue this is evading the question or not really getting to the heart of it because yeah, you’re going to look at those translations. You’re going to see what the commentaries say on it. And there’s a way of like, actually, it’s probably not that, but I can see why people are frustrated with that answer. It’s like, well, why that time? It doesn’t, like, and how do you know he’s actually talking about love there and not some version that’s not really love? And this is again, I probably said this four or five times and, you have to have the entire breadth of Scripture to fully understand, especially on this side of the cross, how we’ve come to understand the character of God and why he does what he does. We have this whole – we have the whole Bible to then explain it. So when we have passages like that, we have to make sure that we’re not building a theology off of one passage or even just a few. What is the overall breadth of Scripture saying? And, as a Christian, I’m going to challenge most people. I want you to start with the person and work of Christ. Not because everything else is irrelevant and we’ve talked about that before. It’s not that. But He literally is the embodied. He is the God incarnate. You want to know little – what is God like? Christ. God became flesh and he let us know what is he like? And then we see the passage – if you don’t mind, the one I wanted to go to that answers the question to me is, does God love everyone? The short answer to me is Yes. And then the side answer is No. But here’s what I mean by that. So in Matthew 5, Christ says, “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.” He’s not going to ask us to do something he himself isn’t doing, right? And we are at enmity with God until we’re reconciled back to him. So there is an aspect that God still loves those that would be considered his enemies. Just like you and I, as Christians, are not required just to be like, okay, I’m friends of the people. I have to love the people that it would actually be at enmity with me. But what does that mean? Because I think we define the word ‘love’ and we assume this is the result of love every time. That’s where I think we get into trouble here. Because does God love everyone the same way he loves those who are part of his bride? I would say no. He doesn’t. There is a different type of love there. And that’s – but we see that in real life. That’s not that hard to believe. But that can still get – that could get tricky because you’re like, well, that’s not fair. But then you have to look at how did those people become part of his bride? Well, unmerited grace. So I do think it evens out. It’s just like it’s hard to get there. Sorry, that’s probably not a very compelling answer to a lot of people that don’t like that answer. I mean, I think the answer is, yes, he does. But when you hear that, you think, oh, God loves the world, that means he would never let anything bad happen. He would never send anybody to hell or there would be no – there would be no hell if God actually loved everybody. So clearly the contradiction is, “God does hate. He’s not that loving. And now I just debunk all Christianity.” It’s like, well, we need to actually – we need to understand what his love is.
00:10:48:01 – 00:13:05:19
Derek
Yeah, understand what is love. But let’s even talk about now a little bit – because I think it’ll be relevant when we talk about what love is and maybe like what are the characteristics of God’s love? And we wouldn’t necessarily say there are obligations there, but there are ways that He reveals his love. And are those consistent all across humanity or is it different? But first, I think it would be interesting to talk about what is God’s hate like? I mean, is it – so I kind of alluded to it in the opening thing. Is it, and I guess you know I’ll play my cards would be, it is because he loves that he hates. And so the person who sent this in sent as an example Psalm 11 verse 5 which says, “The Lord examines the righteous, but the wicked, those who love violence, he hates with a passion.” And so it is interesting that – because I’ve gotten – people have sent me this verse before and said, boy, this really troubles me that God would hate someone. But you read before it and the person that God hates is the wicked who loves violence. It seems like, and we can look through history at people who were wicked and loved violence and, we have a very hard problem accepting that God would love that person and here God is actually, you know, there is that language saying he doesn’t. So you think there’d be almost jumping for joy? But there’s not. It’s like this, ooh, but does that imply, you know, am I now one of these people? Because I know I’ve – there have been times I’ve acted wickedly. So, I guess when you read, yeah, hate in there is it always, I mean is it – this is the question and we’ll get to it a little bit more with maybe the Esau, Jacob. Is it arbitrary or is there a reason? We’ve kind of touched on a little bit, I guess to kind of put a fine point on it. Is God’s hate sort of earned or is it ordained?
00:13:05:19 – 00:15:12:21
Alycia
So, I think one thing that will be helpful for us here is also we think of love and hate in these references absolute. In other words, so if he hates them, he will always hate them. I don’t think that’s a guarantee. I think when we look at Proverbs 6, it talks in 6 verse 16 it says, “There are six things the Lord hates, seven that are detestable to him: haughty eyes [or pride], a lying tongue” – We’ve all failed. God hates all of us because I’m sure we’ve all lied at that point. “Hands that shed innocent blood.” I’ve only gotten to three of them, and we’ve already all gotten to a point where God would hate us, right? So, is there a sense in which these are things that we do? It’s once again, is showing us how much sin is in opposition, or our failures, our desires to live in a way that’s different than what he wants, is in opposition to him so much so that it is – the weight of it is so serious that he hates it. And I think that there is a sense in which – I think that, you know, you can really – this is such a horrible example but it’s just come into my head right now. You know, you can hate like a particular like movie or hate particular food. But then, like, I don’t know, a couple years later you feel like, oh, actually I don’t anymore. Like even in our lives, we see this, like, shift where we may have felt something one place and it moves to another. And I think we see over and over again where the actions that people do and the anger and the bitterness and the lying and the deception, how much is it detestable to God and how much he hates it. But yet, at the same time, you see that he is constantly trying to bring those people who committed those things back to him. So you go back to, you know, the sacrifices that were given. These are sacrifices that were given because people did some of the things that were listed on here and other things that weren’t listed on here yet, each time they were able to be forgiven. And it wasn’t this like, okay, we can try again. We can try again. And so I think that that might be an element that we are potentially missing because we’re assuming that that hate is permanent. And I don’t think that that necessarily needs to be there.
00:15:12:21 – 00:15:22:14
Xandra
Isn’t there a verse that says, like, he’s angry for a moment, but his love goes on forever? I’m trying to remember where that is. But yeah, to your point Alycia, I agree.
00:15:22:14 – 00:15:42:00
Derek
Yeah, there is this. There’s a place where it talks about – I wish I – it’s in the, I mentioned last time, this series on Old Testament violence is pointed out because it does talk about it’s something like anger or wrath or something, but then it compares it to his mercy. And his mercy is like a thousand times greater than that.
00:15:42:00 – 00:15:50:08
Lou
Sorry, I wanted to answer the question you had that you said, is God’s hatred ordained or what was – how did you phrase it?
00:15:50:08 – 00:15:51:21
Xandra
Do people earn his hatred?
00:15:51:22 – 00:15:52:20
Derek
Do you earn it or –
00:15:52:20 – 00:15:54:12
Alycia
Sorry, and that’s where I was going with my answer.
00:15:54:12 – 00:18:35:06
Lou
Sure. Yeah. Okay. So, yeah. There seems to be cause for it and anywhere it’s described it’s actually in light of behavior, in light of lifestyle, in light of what you’re doing, there is God’s wrath and anger towards that. And again, we probably just talked about why that matters. But the flip-side of this, that for me, that is so beautiful, is that that is what appears to be conditional, right? His hatred, anger, however you want a word that, seems to be conditional. And yet, after the cross, there is a unconditional love on the condition of what Christ is done for you, right? It’s conditional in the sense that there’s one thing. But it’s now, as a Christian, if you’re willing to actually go to God and ask for forgiveness in light of a Christ has done on your behalf, his love for you now is unconditional. So there’s there’s nothing you can do then, at that point, for him to stop loving you in this new way that I’m talking about. It’s not just simply, you know, I love you as in ‘the world,’ I’ve created my creation. I love what I’ve created here. We’re talking about a very different thing than getting grafted into his family because we’re co-heirs with Christ. A very different type of love that we’re talking. And that love that he’s willing to offer is unconditional in light again, because of what Christ has done. And so I want to make sure because I do think people throw that out way too quickly. Like, God loves us all unconditionally. It’s like, no, that’s not true. That’s not – and we’re all children of God. It’s like, no, actually he describes us as children of wrath before we actually know him. And so we want to be careful because we’re not trying to say – there’s two, there’s obviously two negatives. Or the pendulum will swing. You got your hyper-Calvinists over here, which is like God hates anyone that isn’t his elect. And there’s just there’s no point to live. And then you have this other side that’s like, no-no, God actually doesn’t have problems with anyone and he doesn’t really care if you change your life. He just loves you because he’s loving. It’s like, both of those are those are so unhelpful and not true, based off the scripture. He does love us all. He was willing to give up his only son for the world. And I know there’s discrepancies. Like, what does ‘the world’ mean there? Is he talking about everyone or just – but again then I look at Matthew 5 and it seems, like, even his enemies. And then there’s also this unconditional love he offers those that he has redeemed in light of what Christ has done for them. And that is like – that’s powerful. Like, so as much as you want to have a problem with this, to your point, it’s like, it’s almost like doesn’t compare to this unconditional love that he’s actually willing to offer, by the way, any and all who come to him wanting it. That’s what’s on offer here.
00:18:35:06 – 00:18:51:02
Derek
And so, just to clarify, I think what you’re saying then is, God’s love is unconditional. Relationship with him is conditional? Is it that sort of a thing? Because there is a distinction between he can love you, but that’s not equated to salvation necessarily.
00:18:51:10 – 00:18:52:23
Lou
Yes, it’s not a salvific love. Yeah, I like that.
00:18:52:23 – 00:19:03:06
Derek
So the difference between, like you’re God’s creation or you’re God’s children. It’s like, everyone is God’s creation, not everyone is God’s child, in essence, is that kind of a similar –
00:19:03:07 – 00:20:30:09
Lou
Yes, that’s how I would – that’s what I would say. Because I do think the other way gets problematic. And I understand what people are trying to say. It’s like, no, God does have care and value for everything and everyone He’s created. Like, if God didn’t want you to exist, you wouldn’t exist. You know what I’m saying? Like, this isn’t like – we’re forgetting this is the author behind every single thing. He didn’t just put it into play and was like, oh yeah, well, these people had a child and I forgot. It was like, No, you exist because he wanted you to exist. But the relational aspect, yeah, that there is the condition there. But like, what I love, and what I find to be so profoundly different about Christianity, is that though that relational thing is conditional, once you’re in relationship, it’s not, you’re not earning any more. There’s no like – you’re actually receiving. I think one of the most scandalous things about Christianity is that you actually receive his righteousness. That’s insane to me. That makes no sense, actually, that I would. It’s like getting the medal of Honor yet never stepping foot on the battlefield. Like, you literally. He actually looks at you in the perfection of His Son and doesn’t see the broken, messed up individual. That’s the beauty of that great transfer. And that, I don’t know, that’s love. I mean, that is like – that is an overwhelming love that I think changes all of us. And yeah, now I’m getting more onto the topic that I don’t want to talk about. Because I don’t – I think it’s problematic. I think it’s hard. I think it’s difficult to actually depict well.
00:20:30:09 – 00:20:49:23
Derek
Yeah. Well, I think even – so, yeah. So, on that topic, I guess – we can cut this part out because now I’m just thinking of where to go next. So it was good but.
00:20:52:06 – 00:23:03:05
Xandra
I can interject something to fill in while you are thinking if you want. I also think that people might view it as a very black and white thing. Like, oh, God hates this person and he loves that person. Or This person is separated from God and this person is with God. And like, that’s it, it’s black and white. But I really think that God’s wrath is again, from a heart of love, which at first is confusing. But you touched on this earlier, Derek, and I was reading this past week about how his wrath can be viewed as provisional. Meaning he’s using his wrath to try and bring people back to himself. So even an outpouring of wrath that we see in the Old Testament time and time again, especially in Jeremiah, you see it every time, it’s so that people will turn and come back to him. That’s the ultimate goal. It’s not just that Jesus is, or that the Lord is, trying to push people away from him because he doesn’t like them and they’re bad. It’s that he’s trying to show them there’s one way to live that works and it’s my way. You know, he disciplines those that he loves. And a second data point, if you will, which is a bit more personal, is that when I was doing hospice work, and I know I talk about that a lot, but it was a really formative time in my life. I was so struck by how the Lord pursued every single person up until their dying breath. And I don’t see a God who just rejects someone in the middle of their life or just says, I’m done with you. I see a God who relentlessly pursues every single human being until their dying breath. And again, I know people might disagree with me on that, but that’s my experience. And I saw some really incredible things. I mean, I’ve never met a hospice worker who was an atheist. Every hospice worker I’ve ever worked with, everyone on my team, everyone else that I’ve met who’s been in that field, believes that there is something more. But yeah, I just wanted to throw that out there because I think there might be people out there who feel like, well, God has rejected me forever, so I’m not even going to try. And I want to say, that is not true. That’s just not true.
00:23:03:05 – 00:23:03:18
Alycia
That’s great.
00:23:04:06 – 00:25:58:00
Derek
Yeah. Well, that’s fascinating, too, because I think – there has been an issue where – because it seems clear what we’re saying is, over and over again, it’s saying God loves everyone, even the sinners, even enemies. He definitely loves everyone. I get that there are issues with some of the language around election and predestination. At some point we’re just going to have to have an episode only on that because, I mean, but that’s just, I mean, it freaks people out and and it shouldn’t. Like, election wasn’t meant to give people hope and it’s kind of turned into this other thing but, you know, I guess as we’re kind of wrapping up here, I know this is a big question. But Xandra, you touched on this a bit earlier because you talk about, you know, things are covenantal and there’s sort of this – almost this comparative thing going on between who’s in covenant and who’s not. And we know that God loves people who are obviously outside of covenant, but it’s using this language to make a point. Almost like when Jesus says you have to, you know, hate your spouse, but Paul saying you have to love them like Christ loved the church, clearly you’re seeing that he’s doing something with the language. So, I think one of the fascinating things about Romans 9:13 is that it’s actually quoting – it’s not quoting from Genesis at all. It’s quoting from Malachi 1:2, in which Esau here. When we’re actually talking about Jacob and Esau, the people in the Bible, Esau doesn’t end up all that bad. Like clearly he went the wrong way. He sold his birthright and that’s a problem. And God works through that. But in Malachi, it’s talking about the rejection of the descendants of Esau, those who have rejected God later, the Edomites. So I guess part of the issue is maybe that whatever theological group you’re a part of, sometimes things have been maybe simplified and there is mystery there. Obviously. But I’m going to – this is turning into my monologue – but what about, I mean, what do you – when you read, I guess because you kind of use that language of covenant, when you read something like, ‘Jacob, have I loved. Esau, have I hated.’ Which I think is one of the passages that really frightens people the most. How do we make peace with something like that? Because as I read it, in context, these are people who are just acting wickedly and attacking Israel as a way to attack God. But, you know, maybe I’m missing something in that. I’d love to hear from you, Lou, on this as well.
00:25:58:00 – 00:27:56:07
Xandra
I have one tiny thought that might help and might not help, but just came into my mind, which is in Hosea – oh no, now I’m not going to remember where it is. So maybe not. But it says basically, oh, here it is, Hosea 4. And it’s talking about who God rejects. And I find this really helpful in the whole Esau / Jacob discussion. And it’s talking about how people are perishing because of wickedness. And he makes a distinction here. So he says, verse 6, “My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge; because you have rejected knowledge, I reject you from being a priest to me. And since you have forgotten the law of your God, I will also forget you” blah blah blah. So, he’s making a distinction between people who are perishing because of what they didn’t know and people who are perishing and causing other people to perish because they’ve rejected God deliberately. They knew it was the truth and they rejected him deliberately. So, you’re talking about people who are afraid of experiencing the wrath of God or the judgment of God. And I just want to encourage them that you are responsible for what you know and God will reject you if you reject Him. If you know who He is and you choose to reject him, he will reject you because he lets you go your own way, right? As Lou has said, heaven is a place where we turn to God and we say, “Your will be done.” And hell is the place where God turns to us and says, “Your will be done.” Basically, he turns you over to your own evil desires which consume you. So, just to not let people be so completely freaked out that they’re going to do one terrible, one thing wrong and make one accident and God’s going to reject them forever. That’s not how it works. Is that helpful at all?
00:27:56:07 – 00:28:55:11
Derek
No, yeah. And I think an extreme version of that, we actually talked about in one of our past episodes, if people haven’t watched, on suicide because we talked about the unforgivable sin and blasphemy of the Holy Spirit and how sort of you’d almost have to be a Pharisee to be able to do something like that. Because these are people who should see God when he’s coming but when they do see him, they say, “Oh, you’re Satan.” Essentially. And so, I mean, that’s not good to call God ‘that’ name. No, I’m not going to do it even describing what they did. But yeah, no, thank you. And the reason I bring up Lou, is – I like Lou because Lou is Reformed and I like hearing him talk about things because he is not the type of Reformed person. I think Lou gives a good sort of loving, Reformed response to things. That is not what a lot of stuff you can honestly watch online. You would get very bizarre –
00:28:55:11 – 00:28:58:06
Lou
Well, I’m sure a lot of Reformed people would say I’m not Reformed. So that’s –
00:28:58:14 – 00:29:51:18
Derek
Yeah. Well, they would, you know, they would also say Calvin wasn’t if they read him. But we’ll leave that. We’re throwing down the gauntlet. But, yeah. But I guess what I mean, what would you say? I know there’s a mystery, but for someone who’s maybe – no one here is against sovereignty, but for someone who maybe wrestles with it a little differently, and maybe for someone out there who is wrestling with it a little differently and does believe in that sovereignty, I think one of you mentioned one time you knew someone who said, I can’t become a Christian because I’m just, I know I’m not saved. I don’t feel that. And I believe God would choose me. I can’t choose him. Like, how do you wrestle with that? What hope does someone get from maybe a passage like this? Or how do they take away hope after reading something like this?
00:29:52:09 – 00:33:16:10
Lou
Yeah, this all comes down to – the sovereignty of God is only even remotely encouraging or assuring if the character of God is good. A God that’s in control of everything yet is wicked, is frightening. Or even a God that’s in control of everything yet is unfair, is frightening. Why I can read even in passages like this? So these passages about God hating Jacob or Jacob, I have loved. Esau, I have hated. Some things, I think, is best to just put it back on the shelf for a while until you really sit and again, I know for some people it’s like, gosh, you’re just one more Christian punting. But I’m like, no I, as a Christian, have wrestled. These are hard questions and you read it, you’re like, you know what, I don’t fully get this one. I’m putting it back on the shelf. I know I’m going to come back to it. But you almost think of this grand puzzle, and you just start putting pieces together and eventually it starts fully coming together. And I do believe I’m at the point in my life where things are coming together. I’m understanding it. But why I would still find a passage like this to be comforting is, in light of the nature and character – how he’s displayed himself all throughout Scripture and specifically in Christ. I will never back down from that. This is where everything I believe hinges on the cross. Hinges on the resurrection. This is like – because this God that appears to be mysterious in the Old Testament, I’m still trying to put together, is the same God here and he’s giving me an even more clear view. And that’s what the scripture is saying. This is the clearest view you’re going to get of God, is the work and the person of Christ. And I see a God that literally was willing to forgive those who were spitting in his face. Like, literally as he’s hanging on a cross, is asking like, they don’t know what they’re doing. That’s the God that has a wrath. And ultimately that wrath should not – like, we get scared about that wrath because we don’t want it to come against us. But then we get really passionate about that wrath when we think of like, yeah, these terrible people that deserve it. Like, good, pick your topic that you’re really angry. Pick a group of people really angry. You actually love the idea of God’s wrath because like, no, they deserve it. So we all have that in us. We’re just always worried about it coming to us. And the scary thing is we all are deserving of it. That’s the – we are. And this is where that Reformed thing is like again, the question I wrestle with is not is it unfair that God would have anger. My question is like, I don’t know why I’m still living, actually, in light of how often I’ve just turned from God. How – look at the world we’re in. Look at what’s going on right now and look how broken we are. Look at the country. And we’re just arguing. We’re vicious to everyone. The moment you disagree with me, you’re an enemy. And I want you to be silenced and put away with. Get out of my society. Like, we’re not good. And yet he is. And he’s willing to actually give us forgiveness in light of what Christ has done. That to me is extremely good. That’s extremely good news. That is comforting to me because I’m the one that’s not good. He is. And his wrath and anger towards that is right, because ultimately we keep damaging everyone around us, including ourselves. And he’s actually welcoming us into flourishment with him.
00:33:16:15 – 00:33:52:21
Derek
Yeah, beautiful. Yeah, thank you. Thank you. All right. Well, that was great. I love that ending. Hope you guys enjoyed this conversation as well. Please feel free to comment below. Interact there. Every now and then we’ll get on there and talk with you as well, when we can. So, feel free to do that. Like, subscribe, share. Please, that really helps us out a lot and rate us. And thanks. If you want your questions answered on the show, just email us at WhereWeBegin@LightenGroup.org. We’ll see you next week.
00:33:52:21 – 00:34:06:03
Derek
Thanks for joining us. Be sure to check out our Facebook and Instagram by searching: Lighten Group. And if you want to know more about what we do or support us financially, please visit our website at LightenGroup.org.
