In this episode, the group discusses whether we, as humans, have free will or something else is controlling us? How do we define “free will”, what does the Bible say about free will, and is God’s sovereignty at stake if we do have free will?
References:
- Benjamin Libet – American Neuroscientist
- John Calvin – French theologian, pastor, and reformer during the Protestant Reformation
- Richard Dawkins – British Evolutionary Biologist
- Sam Harris – “The Moral Landscape: How Science Can Determine Human Values”
- Victor Frankl – “Man’s Search for Meaning”
- Christopher Hitchens – British-American Author and Journalist
Transcript – Do We Have Free Will?
00:00:00:03 – 00:00:21:14
Derek
Do we have free will? Today on Where We Begin.
00:00:21:14 – 00:00:30:01
Derek
Welcome back to Where We Begin: the podcast that answers some of the toughest objections to Christianity today. A podcast not THE podcast.
00:00:30:09 – 00:00:38:20
Lou
I was gonna say, I appreciated that. We are THE podcast that addresses people’s questions. Wow. You have high hopes for today.
00:00:38:20 – 00:00:57:01
Derek
The podcast that answers these questions with this host and these speakers. So, and that’s true, we’re the only one that does it. So, I’m Derek again, the host. Derek Caldwell. Full stop. And we’ve got Alycia Wood, Lou Phillips and Xandra Carroll once again. How’s everyone doing this week?
00:00:57:09 – 00:00:57:18
Lou
Good.
00:00:57:18 – 00:00:59:09
Alycia
Spectacular.
00:00:59:09 – 00:01:00:02
Xandra
How are you, Derek?
00:01:00:03 – 00:01:01:01
Alycia
Yeah. How are you, Derek?
00:01:01:02 – 00:01:03:02
Derek
So good. So good.
00:01:03:03 – 00:01:03:19
Alycia
With your Bonhoeffer on your shirt.
00:01:03:20 – 00:01:09:00
Derek
I’ve got my Bonhoeffer shirt on. One time. I don’t think people know that Lou dressed up as me once.
00:01:10:00 – 00:01:11:08
Lou
I did. For Halloween.
00:01:11:08 – 00:01:16:19
Derek
For Halloween. We wore the same outfit and he wore a nametag that said…
00:01:17:12 – 00:01:18:16
Lou
Bonhoeffer’s little boy.
00:01:18:16 – 00:01:23:09
Derek
Yeah. And I think he thought it was an insult, but I took it as a compliment.
00:01:24:02 – 00:01:26:04
Alycia
Derek is a Bonhoeffer freak, for anybody that doesn’t know.
00:01:26:04 – 00:01:31:06
Lou
Some would say he probably appreciates him too much. Right? Maybe to the point of idolatry or…?
00:01:31:15 – 00:01:39:17
Derek
Yeah. I don’t know. I have sacrificed things before pictures of him. So I do think I may have crossed the line. But Yeah.
00:01:40:17 – 00:01:41:13
Alycia
He’s joking. JK.
00:01:41:13 – 00:01:41:21
Lou
We just lost a couple of subscribers.
00:01:41:21 – 00:01:59:11
Derek
Oh, yeah, I’m joking. I’m joking. Wink. So for this episode, I want to start out first with a little thought experiment. Lou, we’re going to need both of your arms here. Sorry. Should we – do we want to call “cut” on this? So we’re going to need to use it. So everybody stick their arm out like this, and…
00:02:00:01 – 00:02:00:15
Xandra
Which arm?
00:02:00:15 – 00:02:08:17
Derek
Just one. Pick one. And then we’re going to just um, at some point, you need to raise your arm up like that and just do it whenever you want.
00:02:08:18 – 00:02:09:22
Xandra
Raise your arm up?
00:02:09:22 – 00:02:11:06
Derek
Or sorry, just your hand. Like that.
00:02:14:18 – 00:02:17:00
Alycia
Lou’s going to sit here for 20 minutes.
00:02:17:00 – 00:02:29:20
Derek
Just OK. Now, when you did that, what was the process? Did you have the thought first and then you raised your hand? Is that how you experienced that happening? Would you say?
00:02:29:20 – 00:02:30:14
Lou
Yes Yeah.
00:02:30:14 – 00:02:34:14
Derek
So, before you do anything, you have to think and then it happens?
00:02:34:14 – 00:02:34:22
Lou
Yeah.
00:02:35:17 – 00:03:13:22
Derek
Well, there was a study done by a gentleman named Benjamin Libet who hooked people up to basically look at their brainwaves and what’s going on when they do something. And so he would have people do that and then he would have them time when they had made the decision to do it and then lift there – and then time when it actually happened. Before they made the decision, he noticed there was something going on in their brain that before they thought to do it, they had this impulse as if they were forced to think that they were doing it.
00:03:13:22 – 00:03:16:05
Lou
I know where we’re going today. This is good. I like this
00:03:16:05 – 00:03:17:02
Alycia
From the beginning I knew where we were going.
00:03:17:06 – 00:03:21:08
Lou
I had no idea where we’re going. I like this. I don’t know what the question is specifically, but I’m liking this.
00:03:21:08 – 00:03:24:19
Derek
I don’t know if you know this experiment, but from this…
00:03:24:19 – 00:03:30:16
Alycia
Wait, sorry, sorry. Before you go. So he said there was, before they lifted it, there was something that forced their thoughts to happen?
00:03:31:04 – 00:03:33:15
Derek
Well, just that there was some sort of…
00:03:34:04 – 00:03:34:15
Xandra
Like a neurological marker.
00:03:34:15 – 00:03:47:16
Derek
Determination. Yeah. There was something found that – you think you’re doing this when you think, oh, I’m going to raise my hand now, but actually, there’s something that happens before that makes you think, raise your hand now, and then you raise your hand.
00:03:47:17 – 00:03:48:11
Alycia
Oh, boy.
00:03:48:11 – 00:03:53:00
Lou
Yeah. Sounds theologically correct to me.
00:03:53:00 – 00:03:53:16
Alycia
Yeah.
00:03:53:16 – 00:04:52:12
Derek
Oh, goodness. Yeah, yeah. So that’s the question. He said basically, this is proof that free will doesn’t exist. Now in later life, I do think that he sort of changed that a little bit. But, and to be fair, there are people who have said there are issues with this experiment, clearly, for various reasons. But so you guessed it, they don’t know the question before we start but you guessed it. This week we’re talking about Free Will. And essentially the question is this, “Do we have free will?” We sort of – if anyone remembers in season 1, we talked about this a little bit with the issue of ‘the simulation.’ We’re in a simulation. And sort of touched on this a little bit. But there’s different versions of this question. So first, before we get into some of the different versions of this, it’s not all the theological, but we will get to that. I know Lou’s dying to talk about John Calvin.
00:04:52:21 – 00:04:56:13
Xandra
Our theological differences might shine through a little bit on this one.
00:04:57:21 – 00:04:58:04
Derek
A little bit.
00:04:58:04 – 00:04:58:23
Xandra
It’s gonna be good.
00:04:58:23 – 00:05:31:04
Derek
But before we get there, hopefully we’ll find some things that have some common ground on too as well. But first, I mean, what do you think is in that question? When someone says, do we have free will? The first time they hear that maybe you don’t have free will, what is the concern? Because you do experience life as if you have free will. Like should that be good enough? You experience it whether it’s real or not. You live it like it is. Or, like, what is the real – there seems to be this existential dread when you find out that perhaps you don’t have freedom to do what you’re doing, but you’re being sort of yeah.
00:05:31:14 – 00:06:20:02
Alycia
Yeah. I think it changes the – I think for a lot of people it changes the meaning of things, right? So I actually don’t love Lou or I don’t love Xandra. This is actually beyond my control. So it changes. It changes a lot of things. It changes what things mean. It changes what things – like, how you value certain things or how you engage with certain things, your actions, your – It changes what all of those mean. So I can still do those things, but it’s, like, me coming up to somebody and giving them a hug and say, “I love you” versus them holding a knife to my throat and I say, “I love you” to them, but – it’s the same words, right? The same action. But it means different things because in one situation I was forced, one I was not. And so it deals with kind of the implication about what those – what the meanings of everything that you do is. I think that’s one of the reasons that people are resistant.
00:06:20:18 – 00:06:30:11
Lou
I think it comes down to like, what’s the point? Especially if there’s a God and I have no free will. How unfair. Like what a pointless life if that’s how he operates.
00:06:31:09 – 00:06:47:02
Derek
I mean, and do you think – and this isn’t one of the questions – but do you think that’s fair? Like, does there have to be a freedom of choice to truly love? Or can you love truly, even if you couldn’t have ever done anything other than that?
00:06:48:06 – 00:08:26:06
Xandra
I think there has to be a freedom of choice to be human beings, not just to love, but to be, you know. I mean, think of like our name as a species is homo sapiens, like the wise ones, basically. Like, you don’t – you shouldn’t have wisdom if you can’t even make – We were given wisdom because we are choice making beings. So to exercise your wisdom is to exercise your volitional will, which is choice making. So I think it kind of feels like it goes against our ontology. It goes against the very nature of what we are to say that you don’t have freedom of choice, that you don’t have free will. Plus, as a Christian, I mean, free will is what separates Christianity from, like, so many other ideologies. I mean, you look at Islam where things are really predetermined. I mean, and in the Hadiths, there’s one passage that talks about how Allah has apportioned sins for his people, and it specifically talks about adultery, like he’s determined how much adultery you’ll commit in your life. And that’s very different from Christianity, which says you repent for what you’ve done. You come back to the Lord and you say, I’m sorry and you own it. You say, this is my decision. As David said, against you alone have I sinned, oh Lord, and done what was evil in your sight. So I think it’s a hallmark of Christianity to have free will and to have freedom, not just for the sake of love. But for the sake of what we are as beings. And I don’t think that necessarily goes against, you know, the fact that God is sovereign. I’m sure we’ll get into that, but anyway.
00:08:26:13 – 00:08:27:19
Derek
Yeah, no, that’s Oh, go ahead.
00:08:27:19 – 00:09:01:12
Alycia
I was going to say and going along with that, I think if God had wanted a world in which beings weren’t free, he would have created a different world. So he creates a world in which you have this tree, right? You got all of these things. Here’s a tree of life and tree of knowledge and good and evil. Like, you have the opportunity to be free and do something that you want. And I think had free will not been important to us or to him. He would have created us. And he didn’t need to put that tree there. He could have just been like, there you go. Here I am. This is your only option. And so I think just the nature in which he created things kind of demonstrates his desire that free will is important.
00:09:01:12 – 00:09:11:09
Derek
Yeah, OK, thanks. Yeah. That one just kind of popped up there. So first, before we get into maybe where we’re going to see more of a disagreement, perhaps.
00:09:12:01 – 00:09:13:08
Alycia
Oh he’s just quiet. He’s just waiting.
00:09:13:19 – 00:09:19:06
Lou
No, I. I think we have free will. I think we just need to define what free will is.
00:09:19:06 – 00:09:19:18
Derek
Exactly.
00:09:19:18 – 00:09:24:19
Lou
And I think we need to define what sovereignty is. Because I think any good person who has reformed…
00:09:24:20 – 00:09:25:04
Derek
Go on.
00:09:25:04 – 00:09:38:16
Lou
…theology or Calvinists. Like, they’re not going to say absolutely, this is a simulation, and you have no choice. It’s like, no, but you need to know what God’s sovereignty means. And, you know, what does it mean to have libertarian free will? Is that what we have here? Or is it something of a variation of that?
00:09:38:16 – 00:11:30:05
Derek
Yeah. And it’s interesting, too, when because sometimes and I won’t take long on this, but Augustine is sort of this interesting figure in church history where young Augustine, young theologian Augustine had to debate with Manicheans who have this highly deterministic, no freedom, sort of view. And so he sounds very much like someone who’s saying, yeah, of course, you have free will and the choices are yours to make and God’s not to blame for anything that you choose to do. And then later he’s arguing against Pelagians who say we’re sort of born free without sin and born like we don’t have to sin or anything like that. And so he comes out much harder on the other side of things, depending on who he’s debating with. Which is an interesting thing because we will find in the Scriptures, you see both of those things affirmed which is why these debates still continue to exist, because it’s just they’re both there and we don’t really like nuance and we have to sort of pick one hard side or the other. But before we get to that, and that’s a big preamble to that. But before we get to that, there is – I do want to ask a couple of questions that you could see someone who’s more of a skeptic asking. This is not the Christian theologian who’s trying to figure out how exactly does this work out. I mean, some Christians will ask this as well, but so the first one would be this. If – this is a kind of an older one – if God has foreknowledge, we don’t have any sort of will other than what he determines. So is there a necessary connection essentially between God’s foreknowledge and our freedom? If he knows what’s going to happen, does that mean that we actually freely did anything? Especially if he created a world which you wouldn’t have ever done anything else, he created this world in which you would have made these choices. Does that count as freedom?
00:11:32:07 – 00:12:30:05
Lou
I think it’s a false contrast. It’s like a false dichotomy there. I don’t think those two have to go opposite of each other and that’s the problem that I think we immediately – and I can see why superficially it seems like that’s what you have to do because it seems like if I have free will, that means God isn’t sovereign. But if God is sovereign, that means I can’t possibly have free will. But I think that it comes down to how we define it and it also gets under the complexity. I mean, this is a – I feel like people don’t like this answer, but there’s aspects of God, and this would make sense if God does exist, he’s going to be – there’s going to be attributes of his that are just mysterious. Like, if we are created beings, the idea that you and I could possibly comprehend everything about him would be a little asinine, actually, to think about that. If you really are – if you are the created being, for you to assume that you could actually then comprehend every aspect of how he works things together, I just think it’s just the epitome of arrogance. I’ve been there though. It’s not even like I’m saying anybody else – like, I’ve wrestled with that because like, no.
00:12:30:05 – 00:12:33:11
Derek
You’re famously arrogant. Yes.
00:12:33:11 – 00:12:38:21
Lou
Thank you. So yeah, you completely – I don’t know where I’m going. That’s it. You just dropped me so I lost my point.
00:12:38:21 – 00:12:39:10
Derek
I’m sure it was good.
00:12:40:01 – 00:12:40:19
Alycia
If anyone takes a stance.
00:12:40:19 – 00:13:57:23
Lou
Yeah. I think. You need to – yeah. Like, there’s going to be an aspect of mystery to how God actually – I think I actually did this in another podcast that we did. Maybe it was the one on the Matrix or whatever, which I did not enjoy at all. I didn’t. It’s this – so scientists used to do this too. It’s like, does light travel in particles or waves? It’s like, it’s both. And we actually still don’t know why. It doesn’t make sense that it would because it either – typically things travel in particles or waves. There’s something about the both-ness here that, to your point, it’s the nuance and we hate it. Like, we don’t like not having a clear cut answer. We don’t like having to – to have to be like actually it’s yes – and. Or it’s both – and. It’s like but how does that actually work out? And I think, I mean, this is why the debate has been happening for centuries even amongst Christians. Like how does this play out? But I do think, if we can get to it, there’s a passage of scripture I would love to point to where I do think it’s very clear it’s both and I think you’re going to see one side emphasize more of like the sovereignty of God and one side’s going to emphasize more your libertarian free will. But I think either of those, by themselves, is utterly crippling. Like does not work out even livable, like for.
00:13:58:07 – 00:14:23:09
Xandra
Yeah, you can’t go full on Deism and you can’t go full on like occasionalism. I think we’re all like in the concurrentism sort of category of like those three big categories. But yeah, you can’t just say God created everything and then let it go and everything is free will for us. And at the same time you can’t say he’s predetermined every single thing, including your sins. I don’t think any of us would go on that far extreme either.
00:14:24:00 – 00:14:53:13
Derek
Yeah. So it might be helpful even just to affirm, maybe quickly, like what would you say, you know, each individually. Lou, you mentioned we have to define ‘free will.’ So in some sense, sounds like all of you are affirming. Yes, as Christians, biblically, it’s fairly clear. It sounds like you’re saying that free will is affirmed. Now define that for us, I guess. If you can. What is the free will. Yeah.
00:14:54:14 – 00:14:56:11
Lou
I think – oh sorry. I thought he was asking me. Go ahead.
00:14:56:23 – 00:15:00:14
Derek
We don’t have to go individually but someone can say and then if they’re are differences of opinion.
00:15:00:14 – 00:15:19:13
Lou
Yeah, I would just say, you have a volitional ability to exercise. Sorry, I’m trying to make it sound so philosophical. You have the ability of making choices that you can be held accountable to. That would be my understanding of free will.
00:15:21:12 – 00:15:24:02
Derek
Yeah. OK, well I think that’s good and actually –
00:15:24:02 – 00:15:25:21
Lou
Morally accountable. How about that? Yeah.
00:15:25:21 – 00:17:00:20
Derek
And actually, that’s interesting too, because one of the other questions, and we don’t have to spend a lot of time on it, but one of the ones that – to consider then would be you know, the the scientific materialist who still is – like, the famous example would be Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris is another one who they want to on one hand be highly ethical. And you know, Richard Dawkins, you know, the God of the Old Testament is, you know, he has this whole like diatribe essentially on misogynistic, genocidal, infanticide, xenophobic things, but at the same time says something like, we’re dancing to our own DNA. Sam Harris again wants to be very ethical and say that religion is terrible. Look at all the bad it’s caused in the world. But also we don’t have free will. Everything we do is just responding to stimuli based on, you know, our context, our biology, the limitations of our capacities and opportunities and all these things. But in essence, I mean, would you say that that is sort of a nonsense – I mean, not to be uncharitable, but does that make sense? Can you not have freedom and be ethical and call for morality? Like do you have to have to do the right thing essentially, or to call people to do the right thing? Isn’t there the essentially you have to be able to do the right thing on some level?
00:17:02:06 – 00:18:46:01
Xandra
Yeah, I think. Well, and Sam Harris, I know as well, he wrote that book, was it “The Moral Landscape” or something like that? Because he does believe, you know, you can do the right thing. But in a sense, maybe you’re sort of preprogramed to do the right thing. But I see it almost as bookends where it’s not just the before, it’s also the after. Where you can’t actually make things right after you’ve messed up. Like, how do you ask for forgiveness if you’re completely preprogramed? What does that say about morality? And actually, I was reading through Victor Frankl’s work on logo therapy again recently. So he’s the one who wrote “Man’s Search for Meaning” he survived multiple concentration camps – fascinating dude. But he was talking about his work with prisoners and what he calls the ‘mysterium iniquitatum’ or something like – it’s a Latin term that I can never remember. Mysterium Iniquitatum, yeah, if it’s wrong, we’ll fix it later. But it’s basically saying when you go to a prisoner and you say you committed your crime because you were preprogrammed to because of your upbringing, because of your biology, because of your psychological composition, and therefore you’re not really guilty, but you just have to do your time, you know, and but we see that you’re really the victim here. When you do that to a prisoner, the prisoner, in his experience, hated that. They wanted to be allowed to be culpable. And the reason was, reportedly, if they had chosen to do the wrong, then they could have chosen later on to better themselves and do the right thing later. There was a chance for redemption, a chance for forgiveness, a chance for betterment. So he was saying, in that moment, when you’re removing their culpability and their guilt, you’re actually killing their hope for the future. It’s the worst thing you can do to a human being.
00:18:46:06 – 00:18:46:13
Derek
Yeah.
00:18:46:14 – 00:18:47:06
Alycia
Wow, that’s good.
00:18:47:06 – 00:18:48:15
Alycia
Wow, that’s powerful. Yeah.
00:18:50:13 – 00:20:02:07
Lou
I do think to Sam Harris’s point, or what you’re trying to bring up, I mean, again, depends on how you want to define, like, even the meaning and purpose of life. I mean, if your argument is that you and I are DNA dancing and meaning is quite essentially – it’s not really a thing. We kind of just make it up and we can pursue – It’s like, sure, it works. But like, I think to your point, I mean, the way you even worded it, there’s some logical gaps in there that you just gonna have to – But again, to their point, critiquing us as Christians where we have to – I mean, I just tried to explain it. There’s a mystery here. I’m not going to be able to – I can’t like flesh this out entirely where we’re going to be like, ah, solid point. But I do think the more coherent argument would be the Christian worldview on something like this versus then, yeah, you’re completely determined, but make the world better. It’s like how? Like what are we talking about here? And then but I can see them saying, wait a second. So God is sovereign, but you can make free choices. How? It’s like, OK, yeah, fair point. But I do think if you’re willing to take it all at face value and look at the details, even just the experience of the human life, in the way we – just human history, I do think you can actually make a far better compelling argument from the Christian worldview than a secular scientist one.
00:20:02:08 – 00:20:41:06
Alycia
Yeah, and along those lines, if I mean if we are 100% determined from a naturalistic, atheist’s perspective, then nobody should be mad at me for being religious. You know, this is what – this is how I’m programed to be. This is how it’s best for my survival is for me to be religious. And it seems to be best for a lot of people throughout because a lot of people are religious. So it seems to be an essential part of what is important for the species to survive. So what we need to not say then is we need to eradicate religion because then we’re essentially saying we are going to eradicate our ability to survive well. And so that’s kind of part of the challenge I have too is if we’re predetermined, then nobody should have any problem with anything that I believe and say and do, whether religious or not.
00:20:41:23 – 00:22:35:10
Derek
Yeah, yeah. No. Good point. Well, speaking of that, I think it’s probably – it’s definitely time to – let’s turn and talk about the actual, the theological issue that – so let me give you, this might be a caricature, but here’s how. So if they wanted to critique us. If someone wanted to critique us and say, well, you’re not saying anything different actually than what we’re saying, here’s what they might point out and say, actually, this is cruel. And you would have people, you know, like Christopher Hitchens and others talking about how cruel this God is for the way he designed the world and in ways that we might affirm is actually being true when we when we think through our theology and through how we see the Bible. So God is sovereign. I know we need to define that a little bit and we’ve got a few minutes left. So that’ll be easy. But God is sovereign. We are born into sin and we couldn’t be anything other than a sinner. God ordains all things. We can do nothing unless he frees us to do it. And those who go to heaven are chosen by God. Those who go to hell are either chosen by God to do so or just leftovers that essentially fall into hell. And so God, in this view, might even ordain evil. What other outcome would there be? And so the question would arise. And now that’s a like stereotype of various different views. But the question would then be, if we sin, whose fault is it? We didn’t ask to be born, couldn’t choose to be born any other way, and apparently can’t choose to act any other way. So how could God demand of us things we cannot do and then condemn us for not doing them? And that’s kind of the sort of gauntlet question on this.
00:22:36:17 – 00:24:02:12
Xandra
I think this might be getting into – and again, I know we don’t have a ton of time – but the difference between redemption and sanctification. Because I think that that question might be sort of conflating those two things. So redemption is basically I can’t swim, I’m in the water, I’m drowning, and someone throws me what you call a lifering something. And that was not in my power to save myself. Someone else had to reach out and save me. And that’s what Jesus did on the cross. He did that for us. We didn’t ask him to. He did it because of his love. But then there’s the sanctification, which is, you know, you read passages like work out your salvation with fear and trembling. And you’re like, OK, well, you’re already saved. So what does that mean? And I think that’s where you are cooperating with the Lord, with what he is doing. That looks like obedience. You know, spiritual growth. Discipline, which, you know, is not getting into legalism or anything like that. But we are meant to have spiritual disciplines or we’re meant to make our lives count. And so I think that’s where the sanctification comes out. And again, we’re born into sin. We didn’t ask for that. Yes, OK, I can concede to that point but also we choose sins. We do. Honestly, every last one of us, we do things that we know are wrong. So there is a level of culpability there that I think differs from what we’re born into and the nature that God saves us out of. So.
00:24:02:19 – 00:24:23:07
Derek
Do we have – but I guess maybe – I like the analogy. So when we say that, do we have the ability to grab the life saver? Because that’s the freedom part. Or does Jesus just swim out and grab a few who are passed out, face down in the water and the others not? That’s the question.
00:24:23:07 – 00:24:31:02
Xandra
He says, I stand at the door and knock. You need to open that door for me to come in. So he’s there knocking. He’s throwing the lifering.
00:24:31:02 – 00:24:51:06
Lou
I just wish. That’s – I think that that passage of scripture has been used not properly. He’s talking to the church there. Because that’s Revelation. I stand at the door and knock. I do think he says, seek after me and you will find me. But like – but that “I stand the door knock” that’s specifically in relation to a church in Revelation.
00:24:51:06 – 00:24:54:19
Xandra
OK, fair. Let’s go to John. Anyone who would believe in me.
00:24:54:19 – 00:24:55:09
Lou
Yes. Fair.
00:24:55:09 – 00:24:56:11
Xandra
Anyone who would believe in me –
00:24:56:11 – 00:24:59:14
Lou
I’m just making sure. I like, I just don’t want people to –
00:24:59:18 – 00:25:04:21
Xandra
OK, not perish but have eternal life. Yeah. So he’s done the work. But what are you going to do?
00:25:05:03 – 00:25:05:10
Lou
Yeah.
00:25:05:18 – 00:25:07:19
Xandra
I still think I still think there’s an application there.
00:25:08:03 – 00:25:08:11
Lou
Yeah.
00:25:08:21 – 00:27:23:00
Alycia
That’s what I think. I think actually Acts 17 can be helpful on this. Where it says that God, who made the world – from one man he made all the nations of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth. And God determined the time set for them in the exact place where they will live. God did this so man would seek and reach out for him and find him, though he’s not far from each one of us. And I’m a little bit more, and I can’t believe I’m actually saying this, like, agreeing somewhat with Lou on – I do think that there is a bit of a dual thing. I do think that God is a part of this process of helping us to discover who He is, but there’s still an element where it’s like, he’s set us up, OK, he’s given us clues, he’s given us hints, he’s put us in places that are goint to be more conducive to us. But he sets us up to say, OK, now that I’ve given you all this, what are you going to end up doing? So there is a bit in which there is almost a facilitating, but at the end, you’re still choosing him. And I actually think this idea of there being a dual is actually way more beautiful to me because it shows that God isn’t just sitting back, arms crossed, not that he has physical arms, but work with me, looking and saying, I hope you guys running around like little ants down there, figure out who I am. Like he is a part of us, of this relationship, of this relationship forming. And he wants that. And so he’s doing what he can, this whole Hound of Heaven where he is in pursuit of us and he is trying to bring us onto him. So I actually do think there is a sense in which we have this free will. And I do think you look at Paul, and that seems pretty clear that God was like, Hello, dude, you’re going to know who I am. You see these things. It doesn’t mean it happens in every case that everybody’s a Paul, but it seems like it does happen in some. And so that’s why I’m you know, I don’t think it’s Choice A: Calvinsim, Choice B: Arminianism, Choice C: Molinism. I think it’s Choice D. I think it’s the D that we’ll find out when we meet him face to face, actually. And we’ll actually – because there’s things that he hasn’t put in that don’t make me necessarily confident to dig my stake into one particular position. I think that there’s things he’s given us, enough to have great discussions and jostle things around and have an idea, but I don’t think it’s as solid and concrete as Jesus lived, died, and resurrected. And I think that’s for a reason. I think that would impact the way that we interact with each other if we thought it was only God who did it or if we thought it was only us who did it. And I think it would change the way we interacted.
00:27:23:11 – 00:29:42:14
Lou
I think this whole conversation is like, the linchpin of Christianity is, grace. I would completely agree with the first, you know, question that you put out just how unfair, outside of grace. If this just like every other religion? Yeah. No, it is extremely unfair. I mean, I grew up in a religious household in a fairly wealthy country where I was taught that morality was a pretty advantageous thing for me to do. What are the chances that I live a life that’s pretty good? Probably pretty high. What about if I’m growing up in the slums of India and I’ve only ever seen betrayal, killing, rape, stealing, didn’t grow up with parents? What, like, truly, what chance do I have that I would be good enough to fit your category of what does it mean to be good? Not very high. But in Christianity, that person has just as good a chance as me. In the sense that anyone that’s willing to bow the knee to God and say I need a savior, he’s willing to save. It doesn’t matter what you’ve done. That, to me, is why this whole thing changes and why God’s sovereignty is – why I think God’s sovereignty is so beautiful. It’s just the assurance that I don’t have to – if salvation is on him, I don’t have to feel like I’ve done anything for it, and I can actually just be free to live the life he’s designed for me. That is like, so assuring to me. And I do think that’s what separates Christianity from any other world religion. It is like, Wow, it’s not something that I have to earn, but it’s actually something he’s freely given me. And yeah, I think that’s actually – I think it’s one of the most powerful things that we have to offer. And, you know, well never mind. I’m trying to think of like, because it is hard. It’s like – because I would even, to make it difficult, was he the one that threw us in the water? That’s the other problem with that one. Like with a life jacket because like yeah. And that’s where I just – it gets complicated. I don’t understand how or why God did it that way. But what changes everything for me is the cross. And that is why we boast in the cross. We boast and nothing short of that. Because this is the thing that makes sense of the God of Christianity that I may not fully understand his role and all these things yet he was willing to display a ridiculous and scandalous love for me and offer me grace that tells me he’s not this weird scientist, just trying to throw an experiment out. Yeah.
00:29:42:14 – 00:29:43:15
Alycia
Yeah.
00:29:44:05 – 00:30:14:20
Derek
Yeah. No, I think – and the interesting thing on this, too, is that you we kind of joke around sometimes, like we’re going to have differences in theology and it’s true to a degree, but it is, I think, good to know that those differences actually, some of us have turned those differences into a very major thing, but it’s about 0.005% of what we – and there’s still a lot to agree with on that. We need grace. We can’t do this without Christ. Without his grace.
00:30:15:07 – 00:30:16:14
Alycia
And none of us save people.
00:30:16:17 – 00:30:25:15
Derek
None of us save. We can’t save people. We all do have freedom. And we’ve all used it for ill. So, that’s something that can all –
00:30:26:00 – 00:31:23:10
Lou
I think if we all think too of our own, like, so we’re all Christian here. Like, I love thinking about my own story. I grew up in a Christian household. I would say I, to the best of my ability, became a Christian when I was like four or five years old. And when I think back to my life, you know, you immediately think of John 3:16, right? And then as you get older, you kind of look back at the door of salvation and you’re like, he was pursuing me, and I never even knew it. Like John 6, after that, no one comes to the father. I mean, no one comes to me unless the father draws them. That is – I think the initial point of salvation, this is where I’m going to be a little more honest, I think it looks like I did it. I think it does look like I bowed the knee. But then you look at who he is and when he reveals himself, I’m sorry, I just think he ruins you for good. Like when he actually shows up. There’s nothing you can do but bow the knee and say there’s nothing, there’s no greater reality than this. And that’s why I think. But it is that – it’s both-and.
00:31:25:06 – 00:31:29:16
Derek
Well, I hate to leave John 6 uncontested. Way to bring that up at the very end.
00:31:30:11 – 00:32:38:02
Alycia
I’m sorry. Can I say one final thing real quick? Sorry. Just because, yes, because this is something Yeah, no, I won’t even be on John 6. But just so that people will just keep in mind, right, that, you know, this is something that causes a lot of, you know, issues like, you know, we’re mostly cordial among friends. It’s not going be a big deal. But it does issue when some people and go to certain churches, hold certain views, and certain people only go to conferences, and people who are listening to people only have certain views. Right? So that’s where you see kind of a lot of the division happening. So let me just make this point and we can kind of end it out is – the thing we need to remember is both sides agree, ore multiple sides agree, you know, how many you want to consider here, are going to agree that when somebody says, I want to serve you, Jesus, I want to serve you God, they can. The question is, how did they get to that point? That’s what we’re trying to sort out. Was it because they freely chose or because God made them or was there something else? But where all the sides are going to agree, somebody wants to bow the knee and say, I declare you as Lord. They are going to be able to do that. And I think that’s ultimately what we need to remember is that this is an opportunity. This is something that when people come to that point in their heart and say, yes, I believe God has that door open.
00:32:38:02 – 00:33:03:18
Derek
Yeah. Great. I love that. Well, thank you, guys. This was fun spirited conversation. Now, did we freely choose to have these views or not? I don’t know. Let us know in the comments. And yeah, like, subscribe, share. Please, that really helps us get the word out. And we hope you enjoyed this. If you want your question answered on the podcast, you can email wherewebegin@lightengroup.org and we’ll see y’all next week. Bye.
