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Can You Believe In Evolution And Still Be A Christian?

Where We Begin Podcast Team

In this episode, the group discusses ways science and our theology can be reconciled and if it’s possible to believe in evolution while also being an orthodox Christian. 

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References:

  • Charles Darwin, Scientist
  • John C. Sanford, Geneticist
  • Francis Crick, Molecular Biologist
  • St. Basil the Great, Byzantine Bishop and Theologian
  • St. Augustine, Bishop and Theologian
  • St. Clement of Alexandria, Theologian
  • Origen of Alexandria, Biblical Scholar and Theologian
  • St. Thomas Aquinas, Catholic Priest and Theologian

Transcript: Can you believe in evolution and still be an Orthodox Christian?

00:00:00:17 – 00:00:23:20

Derek

“Can you believe in evolution and still be an Orthodox Christian?” Today on Where We Begin?

00:00:23:20 – 00:00:35:00

Derek

Hey, guys, welcome back to Where We Begin, a podcast where we discuss some of the toughest objections to Christianity. I’m your host, Derek, and I’m joined again by Alycia, Lou, and Xandra.

00:00:35:00 – 00:00:35:17

Derek

How’s it going?

00:00:35:17 – 00:00:36:05

Alycia

Hey.

00:00:36:05 – 00:00:36:18

Lou

Excellent.

00:00:36:18 – 00:00:37:07

Xandra

Fantastic.

00:00:37:16 – 00:00:40:22

Lou

Thank you, Derek, for asking.

00:00:40:22 – 00:00:42:00

Xandra

We don’t care how you are.

00:00:42:12 – 00:00:46:13

Lou

Derek, seriously we just want to do the podcast, can we just not do this every … ?

00:00:46:13 – 00:02:12:07

Derek

I don’t know if you think this comes across as charming? But I can tell you it does not. We would like to. Today, we have a really interesting question, especially Alycia, I know you’ve got good thoughts on this, but we’re talking also to two scientists. Now, Lou has already admitted that he doesn’t remember anything from biology, but I think this will be interesting because essentially what they’ve asked is this, “Can you be an Orthodox Christian and believe in evolution or does that disqualify you as a true Christian?” Now there are two pressures here that make this difficult. One is, in many ways, science has become the new – to some people – scientism: the new religion, scientists: the new priests, those who are holding all the truth in the world where all meaning comes from. But then a lot of Christians may have parents who there’s the pressure the other way, you can’t even think about it or you’re somehow denying Christ, denying biblical truth because it’s clear what Genesis says. So, yeah, let’s talk about that. What are – Some of the people that you’ve talked to through this question? I’m sure you’ve talked to a lot of people on this. What’s the feeling out there?

00:02:12:13 – 00:02:19:17

Lou

I mean as a molecular biologist, I mean, I feel that I can speak about this. Yeah.

00:02:19:17 – 00:02:23:01

Derek

Do you even remember what a molecule is? Can we start there?

00:02:23:01 – 00:02:37:14

Lou

I have some thoughts on this. No, I’m going to let Xandra take this. And just if I want to say anything today, maybe. Xandra, how would you – How would you answer? Let me be the host today. Xandra, how would you like to answer this question?

00:02:37:20 – 00:02:49:22

Xandra

I’m excited about this question. I love this question. I love nerdy science questions, and I didn’t know – I did not know you were going to ask this and I wore my nerdy, like science, like necklace. I had no idea you were going to be asking this question.

00:02:49:23 – 00:02:53:10

Lou

For those of you that are listening, it is nerdy, actually. It is nerdy.

00:02:54:04 – 00:03:01:02

Xandra

It’s all the planets. See the planets of the solar system? Note that one is missing. Pluto’s not there.

00:03:01:03 – 00:03:02:01

Alycia

Cause they took one away.

00:03:02:02 – 00:03:03:07

Lou

I thought the added it back.

00:03:03:11 – 00:03:04:16

Xandra

It’s been deplaneted.

00:03:04:16 – 00:03:05:04

Alycia

Deplaneted.

00:03:05:12 – 00:03:14:14

Derek

Have you ever noticed that all the planets are named after gods, but this planet’s named after that stuff on the ground? Isn’t that weird? Anyway.

00:03:14:14 – 00:03:14:22

Lou

What a random thing.

00:03:15:15 – 00:03:16:08

Xandra

I have never thought about that.

00:03:17:08 – 00:03:18:10

Lou

Answer the question.

00:03:18:10 – 00:03:19:15

Derek

I stole that. Go ahead.

00:03:20:01 – 00:03:22:19

Xandra

That’s good. I don’t even remember what question I’m answering now.

00:03:23:06 – 00:03:29:04

Lou

Can you faithfully believe in both the Christian faith and believe in evolution.

00:03:29:04 – 00:04:54:18

Xandra

Yes. You can. I’ve met many people who take this view. It’s what we call theistic evolution. So in theistic evolution, you accept the five causes of Darwinian macro evolution, which are now – let’s see if I can remember my schooling – mutation, mating, genetic drift, natural selection and oh, dang, there’s one more. There’s a fifth cause of Darwinian macro evolution, I’ll come back to it. But they accept that those driving forces are what create what we’ve seen in terms of biological life and just in general, the structure of the universe. So even though there’s this sort of this stochastic element, if you will, that this randomness and this chance element that God used that as a tool to create what he created so that he operated within the principle of evolution to create what we see. So that’s theistic evolution. And I’ve met many faithful men and women who love the Word, who love the Lord, and yeah, I mean, they accept this wholeheartedly. So I think it is absolutely possible.

00:04:54:19 – 00:05:30:10

Lou

I was one of those people, by the way, that grew up in a household like, anything other than a literal seven day, like. And I wrote when I went to, I mean, I went to a public high school and I just kind of like didn’t listen to my teacher about like anytime we went into that realm was like all, because I just associated the word ‘evolution’ with ‘atheism.’ Which is kind of just the way I was raised. But then when I went to a Christian university, I went to Grove City College and one of my professors was, we read the book ‘The Language of God’ by Francis Collins. Francis Collins is no dummy. He’s quite a brilliant man. One of the head of the Human Genome Project.

00:05:30:23 – 00:05:31:11

Xandra

He cracked the code.

00:05:32:10 – 00:05:36:06

Lou

Brilliant guy. And I’m reading his book on his understanding of like.

00:05:36:22 – 00:05:40:23

Xandra

‘The Language of God?’ Was that the one you were reading? Oh, I just remembered the fifth one: migration.

00:05:41:00 – 00:05:41:12

Lou

There you go.

00:05:42:20 – 00:05:44:12

Xandra

Sorry, continue. ‘The Language of God.’

00:05:44:12 – 00:05:57:07

Lou

Anyway, that was the first time, when I was in college that was the first time I realized this understanding. I just, I didn’t even know there was a case to be made for this understanding of being both a Christian and someone that believes in evolution. So.

00:05:58:00 – 00:07:58:13

Alycia

And I think just to go back to this question, I think the reason why people ask this question. Part of the wrestle is because there’s kind of two pieces of it. There’s the science piece, obviously evolution, but the ultimate issue, I think, is in the theological implications. And I think that’s one of the reasons why people wrestle with it is not just because of it, because most people who are in the Christian realm, who hear of evolution don’t necessarily, you know, dig into the science of evolution. But what they hear instead is, “This is an alternative reading to what my Bible says about how Genesis and God created. What Genesis and what God created.” And so for them it’s a theological challenge. And I do think that it is something that I can understand why people struggle with trying to merge the two together. I’m not saying whether or not evolution is right or wrong. I’m just saying that part of the reason why the struggle is there is because what does it mean for Adam? Who then is Adam, you know? And in evolution, essentially what you have is you have, you know, you go from simple to more complex, more complex. And then you got the organisms continue to grow and evolve into different things. But eventually what happens? It’s not like you just get one human one day, right? You have an entire group that eventually is, you know, becomes what we consider human, whatever that is going to mean, of course then you’ve got to ask, when does somebody become a human versus what they previously were? And then so you’ve got that implication, you’ve got when did they become an image bearer of God? When did they get the image of God bearer on them? What stage of that process? And then once they’ve got the image of God, did they then become morally responsible? But regardless, you had this happening to many, many beings at the same time. And then all of a sudden you have what – who’s Adam? Is you one of these? And if so, which one is he? Did God just pick randomly, pick one particular person out to be Adam. And then that’s that, you know, like, how did that happen? Or was Adam just symbolic? And the reason why there’s implications.

00:07:58:13 – 00:07:59:15

Lou

That’s problematic. Nope.

00:07:59:15 – 00:08:00:09

Alycia

Right. Right.

00:08:00:17 – 00:08:01:10

Lou

We’re getting into the realm

00:08:01:10 – 00:08:03:17

Alycia

That’s where the theological issues are.

00:08:04:02 – 00:08:04:19

Lou

It’s getting tricky.

00:08:04:19 – 00:08:06:20

Xandra

Did they have belly buttons? That’s the real question.

00:08:07:21 – 00:08:08:19

Lou

Stop it.

00:08:09:11 – 00:08:10:08

Derek

Gosh, I hope so.

00:08:11:11 – 00:08:18:14

Alycia

But just to finish it real quick, the reason why the Adam issue is a challenge is because you’ve got Jesus being called the New Adam. Right. So just to finish it off.

00:08:19:01 – 00:08:28:20

Lou

I think there’s more than that. If you’re going to say that Adam is purely like a metaphor or like symbolism like I think we’re running into.

00:08:29:07 – 00:09:33:17

Derek

Well, can I give a rundown, real quick of just – so the things that cause the question – I think you can be a very devoted Christian and believe in evolution. But this question is, can you be Orthodox? And that would be. That is the tough question, because here are the things that you’re – that essentially – in a lot of the versions I’ve heard, here are the things you’re asked to believe. And so we want to know, is there a real contradiction? Is there some truth out there that contradicts the Bible? And that’s a problem. So the things that you’re asked to believe, and tell me if you think this is fair with the people, you’ve talked to. You have to believe in an old Earth. That’s – a lot of people do that and that seems to be fine. Death before the fall. No Adam and Eve. God’s creation needing suffering to survive. And essentially – now you’ve already said it’s a guided process, but some would say God is actually unnecessary in this process. So it’s deism. We don’t need God to do it. If it’s by chance.

00:09:33:23 – 00:09:34:18

Alycia

There’s randomness.

00:09:34:18 – 00:09:35:14

Derek

There’s randomness.

00:09:36:04 – 00:09:37:11

Alycia

You can’t have a designer of randomness.

00:09:37:13 – 00:09:41:13

Lou

Wait, you’re saying that’s what a theistic evolutionist has to believe?

00:09:41:14 – 00:10:33:20

Xandra

This is where it’s going to be really important for us, in the discussion, to acknowledge that there are – there’s a wide gamut of theistic evolution. And there are many theistic evolutionists who believe more kind of a deistic almost side. Where God created the processes and then stepped back and hands off and just let them sort of go the way that they – go the way that they naturally would have went. And then there are more towards the real Ex Nihilo idea of he created specifically out of nothing. This popped into existence when he said it. But then those things that popped into existence when he said it continued to evolve after they were created Ex Nihilo. And so and there’s a whole gamut in between. And so I think it’s important for us to acknowledge that as we continue in the conversation to be fair to our brothers and sisters out there who do believe in evolution, who are Christians at the same time.

00:10:35:07 – 00:10:39:21

Derek

I’m sorry, did you say that you were? You do believe in theistic evolution?

00:10:39:21 – 00:10:41:01

Xandra

Personally, I do not.

00:10:41:01 – 00:10:41:15

Derek

OK.

00:10:41:15 – 00:11:52:21

Xandra

So no, I mean. Which surprises people because I have a master’s degree in biological science, I’ve done a lot of work in genetics, and I’ve studied this a lot. And it would have been so much easier for me to have accepted theistic evolution. And that would have been a great way for me to marry my faith in Christ with my research. But it was actually more on the scientific side that I found problems with evolution. And actually, it’s – this is so funny because this morning I woke up to an email. It’s an invitation to go to this symposium, this conference in the Middle East, and it’s going to be a gathering of some of the top biologists on the planet discussing these things. And the title that they chose for the symposium is so interesting because it’s “Potentials and Limitations of Evolution.” And that’s the topic for this year, for 2022, is “Potentials and Limitations of Evolution.” So the top scientists, the top biological scientists in the world today are still discussing the limitations of this theory, just scientifically of this theory. And I think that’s also worth acknowledging.

00:11:52:21 – 00:11:54:03

Derek

Yeah. Sorry, go ahead.

00:11:54:06 – 00:13:14:03

Alycia

Well, I was just going to just to add on to it. I mean, because one of the things I mean. I feel like this is coming more and more scientists are starting to express this. But part of the thing we have to remember is evolution, when Darwin lived, it was in a very different era, right? We didn’t understand the inner workings of a cell like we do now. Like, he did not have. He was not privy to the information we have now. And there’s a sense, which I’ve often wondered for many years, if he came back today and saw us maybe holding on to certain parts of his theory, he’d be like, “You idiots. Like, I didn’t know what you know now. Like, I wouldn’t hold this view on this particular area if I knew what you guys knew.” And so there’s a sense where you have to remember that when he was living, he had only access to information that we are like, flooded with, you know, whether it’s DNA and encoding that, whether it’s all these little things that end up in a cell. And so I just think that. It makes sense to me that people would see limitations. And I’m actually happy to hear that people feel like they can be more vocal about those limitations because there is a sense in which you oftentimes, and within the scientific community I’ve heard, that if you try to express reservations about it, you know, you’re kind of shunned and we never want any field. I don’t want anybody to say, “I’m a Christian who’s not allowed to ask questions.” I don’t want anybody to say that about science. I don’t want to say that about any field. We should always be able to unpack it further if we see any issues with it.

00:13:14:09 – 00:13:25:05

Lou

I mean, even when I studied molecular biology, I’m sorry, I’m laughing. I was doing this because I thought I was to a doctor. So get off my back. I can see you judging me, Derek. I didn’t want to study –

00:13:25:08 – 00:13:27:03

Derek

You would’ve never made it as a doctor.

00:13:27:03 – 00:13:51:01

Lou

I was going to be fine with that. And this is – human biology was a lot different. But I always found it, like, really interesting when I was learning. Like the evolutionary process, like, it did a good job of explaining mutation and I just remember the peppered moth and the Galapagos finches like, you see, it’s like, yeah, it’s like these small.

00:13:51:02 – 00:13:55:00

Xandra

Both of which weren’t technically macroevolution., by the way.

00:13:55:00 – 00:14:24:10

Lou

Well, OK. Well, this is the stuff I remember. But I remember seeing, looking at that and I was like, Yeah, like this. It does a great job of explaining these things, but it never got to like, but how, from a single cell organism, do we get to complex life? Like, and in the same thing with like the one thing I do remember from Molecular Biology is like, I just remember the circle of DNA, RNA and proteins like you need DNA to make RNA and to make then proteins, but then you need proteins to make DNA. And I’m just like, I don’t know.

00:14:24:20 – 00:14:26:11

Xandra

Which came first? How did it start?

00:14:26:11 – 00:14:37:08

Lou

Yeah, it’s just like a weird like. So I always just like, this is a – and how we get to the bottom of it? And that’s why I kind of just laid back off from it and was like, I don’t – I don’t know how this all works out, but it seems compelling to me.

00:14:37:09 – 00:15:50:07

Xandra

Well, and that’s the thing about science, right? Science can explain the process. It can explain, well yeah, DNA to RNA. Like, it can explain that process, but it can’t explain where it came from. So a lot of what we see in macro evolution is operation science, what we call operation science. But it’s not origin science. It doesn’t explain where it came from. It just explains how it works. And it’s great that we have a way of explaining how things work. That’s why I love science. I’m fascinated by science. I’m a total nerd. Anyone who knows me knows what a nerd I am. But it doesn’t answer every single question. It certainly doesn’t answer the question, “Where we come from?” So and I think that’s one thing that theistic evolution tries to do is try to take an operation science and sort of convert it or conform it into also being an origin science or an origin explanation. And so and again, I think in some forms that works OK and in other forms, I think it just doesn’t, because once you get into more like the deistic forms it, yeah, it doesn’t work. And also, like a lot of things that people say are macro evolution are not macro evolution at all. They’re just phenotypic plasticity like the finches or the moth.

00:15:50:08 – 00:15:54:01

Derek

Can you explain those terms? At least macro and micro, just to make sure everybody is following along.

00:15:54:01 – 00:15:58:09

Lou

I mean, I know what you’re talking about because I’m a molecular biologist. But for those listening that don’t know.

00:15:58:09 – 00:15:59:23

Xandra

He’s a microbiologist who remembers everything he studied.

00:16:00:10 – 00:16:02:08

Lou

Molecular, I’m not a micro.

00:16:02:08 – 00:16:02:19

Xandra

You’re not.

00:16:02:20 – 00:16:08:13

Lou

Molecular. What’s the difference between micro and molecular? I couldn’t tell you but there is a difference.

00:16:09:02 – 00:17:07:03

Xandra

Well, I’ll tell you the difference between micro and macro evolution. Macro evolution is a change in allelic frequencies over time, so it means your genome, your genetic composition is actually changing. And that’s where you get speciation, where you get a new species is arising through these processes. So that’s macro evolution. Then there’s micro evolution, which you can watch happen under a microscope, and that’s just where your phenotype is changing. So I can have a tank of guppies and I can breed them over time and select for the male guppies that have really long fins and eventually get a population of really long finned guppies that look a particular way. And that’s micro evolution. So that’s just when I say phenotypic plasticity, I’m talking about phenotype is what’s on the outside. Phenotypes kind of like how you look. Genotype, macro evolution, what’s on the inside, what’s in the DNA. Yeah.

00:17:07:03 – 00:17:18:23

Lou

So can I ask a question to Xandra because – sorry, I’m going to constantly take your job from you, Derek. It’s not that I don’t think you’re good at it. I just. This is what I wanted. I actually wanted to be the host. So.

00:17:18:23 – 00:17:21:15

Derek

I don’t feel threatened. Just to clarify.

00:17:21:15 – 00:17:42:02

Lou

Why aren’t you like if you – whatever in two minutes. Why aren’t you a theistic evolutionist? Like, why is that not the realm you’ve got? Because you as someone that has, as you see the compelling arguments from brilliant scientists on both sides, both Christian and non-Christian, like why have you remained in a place where you’d say, “No, I don’t believe this to be true?”

00:17:42:05 – 00:19:58:06

Xandra

Hmm. Well, I think it came out of a period of really intense investigation because it was something that I thought, you know, I should believe in. And that was probably true. And I wanted to understand why it was true. But the more I looked into it, the more I realized, wait a minute. I don’t think that this can be true. And a big part of that is the genetic side. I mean, you’ve got brilliant minds like geneticist John Stanford, who literally invented the gene gun, who did the work. He created Mendel’s accountant, which is a way of mapping how genes change over time. Because he wanted his, his main project was to see how long it would take to move from our apelike predecessor to Homo sapiens. How many years would that have taken for macro evolution to do that successfully? And even with perfect parameters put into the system, it took longer than the known age of the universe. So it’s a huge time problem. It just seems like something has to have interacted from outside. And I’ve looked at the math, I’ve looked at the numbers and it’s somewhere between 4 to the power of 100. 4 to the power of negative 183 to the power of 110,000 to like one number that’s slightly different from that. But basically, it’s impossible to jump from non-life to life. The jump from non-life to what you’re talking about, from a single cell to all of life, I’m talking about before that, how do you get from nowhere to that cell? Which is why Francis Crick, who, you know, helps discover DNA, invented this idea of panspermia like aliens, did it. I don’t know how this got here, this incredible complex DNA strand. Well, let’s just say that aliens came and left life on this planet because it’s so, so incredibly impossible that this could have happened. So, I mean, so as of now, as a biologist, I guess I’m not allowed to believe in God, but I’m allowed to believe in aliens. I mean, that doesn’t really make sense to me. I think it’s a very viable option to say, Oh, I think that God did this and it couldn’t have just been natural processes. I believe that he does work in natural processes, but I don’t – I think that there are some strengths to Darwinian macro evolution. We know that things change over time. We’ve seen that. That’s observable. But I don’t think that all of the assumptions we’ve made about it thus far are completely accurate. I think there’s still a lot of work that needs to be done.

00:19:58:12 – 00:20:07:13

Lou

I’ve never met anybody be able to actually explain to me how we know that evolution is like the process by which like anyway, that you believe in this. Like, explain it to me and

00:20:07:13 – 00:20:09:03

Xandra

There’s a lot of A Priori.

00:20:09:16 – 00:20:12:04

Lou

I’ve never met anybody be able to explain that to me well, because I’m always like.

00:20:13:05 – 00:22:33:12

Alycia

Yeah, I mean, there’s other people out there who will. I don’t necessarily have the science background to challenge them. I think what it would be interesting is to have someone who does, like a Xandra, to be able to because I definitely have heard people say, this is why I believe it. This is why it’s so strong. But you know, they go into all kinds of things that I just wouldn’t even know about and so I’d be really interested in, you know, somebody else speaking into that dialogue. But regardless, I think what you said is actually really important. I think this is why we have such a push of evolution is because it is about, it’s been made to be about origins and not operation. In other words, you know, the big question that so many people have, how did we get here, right? The five-year-old asked Mom, “Mom, how do we get here?” Right? This is the question that humanity’s had for whoever knows how many years, right? And so, it’s like, do we have the answer? Do we have the answer to that question? And it gives people the ability to have that the answer to that question, apart from any kind of divine or alternative thing. Panspermia, of course, would put you back into that camp. Whatever the camp is of there being some kind of outside source. It’s just like, is there a way that this is happening kind of on its own? So I think the origin thing is, is the really the key reason why I think so many people have really dug their heels into this. But just to go back to what you’re saying, Derek, about what makes it Orthodox because you read a list of things there or not makes Orthodox. Can you be an Orthodox Christian and believe and you read, one of the things I think you read was it maybe something like that there was evil was a part of creation. And you know, this idea of Adam and Eve? Right. And so to answer your question was, you know, can you be an Orthodox Christian and believe in evolution? I would say I would be willing to say I would. I would give it more time before I answer that. Because I think one of the, I think is something that the theistic evolution movement is trying to do is answer the theology, and they recognize that they do have a challenge when it comes to the theology. And so I’m happy to give them that time to consider because I know several people who are theistic evolutionists, and they are sincere Christians and they do love the Lord. And so I really don’t question their belief, but it does – but they do recognize they have to work on the theology? And so I think giving them some time to be able to unpack that because they are aware of those issues, maybe in a few years, we’ll have a better grasp on that. Maybe in 15 years, we’ll have a better grasp on answering those a little bit better. But that’s where I would land on that.

00:22:34:04 – 00:24:03:04

Derek

Yeah, and there are people. And just to point out too, there are you know, there are organizations like BioLogos that are attempting to do this every day. There are people like Joshua Swamidass who wrote a really interesting book about genealogical Adam and Eve. That you could have an original genealogical heir. And he’s a computational biologist. So pretty interesting. But one last thing I want to get to. We’re running out of time, but I want to give. Perhaps we could give some people a little room to breathe and just feel. Like, they can even look into these things, so a lot of times the charge is you’re only believing in evolution because of this cultural pressure to do it. And we could point out that actually before the theory of evolution, there were Christians like Basil the Great, Augustine Clement of Alexandria, Origin, Aquinas, who did not take that sort of literalistic realistic view of the early chapters of Genesis – the 6 literal 24-hour days of creation – who recognized that maybe there was a different point being made, and maybe there’s a different way to read it, literally. What do you guys think of, you know, are there? Are there? Is there freedom in that? How would you even maybe give some tips on reading Genesis?

00:24:03:22 – 00:26:41:01

Lou

Oh, sorry. I would say, like when you’re trying to answer the question of like science and faith, like, I think as Christians, we need to be very careful to say what the Bible says and not a word more and not a word less. And I think we actually get really good at saying more than what the Bible says in certain things. And we also got to realize like the Bible isn’t a science textbook. It’s sometimes we go to it trying to use it the way we would read our biology textbooks like, well, this is, this doesn’t work, like there’s a there’s a contradiction here. And so again, the thing I learned when I was in college, just like you start looking at the between Genesis one and two and you’re like, Well, wait a second, if I take this completely, literally. There’s two different stories happening right here, and they do seem to contradict each other if I’m going to do that that way. So I think to make sure that we understand the different genres of Scripture like I think we so often go to Scripture as in like one book and it is one book, but it’s kind of like a library. I mean, you’re talking about like over 40 some authors and written over thousands of years. And we’re trying to pretend like it was. Yes, there is one true author behind it all. But like, we have to go and go to it with a lot of humility. But the one thing I’ve always said, just as somebody that even came with a science background and where I got like I said, I wanted to go into medicine was like, What I loved about science is science could always tell me how we could take, say, a kidney from somebody and put it into another body and that work, like the idea. How did that come up? But the thing is that science never could tell me why in the world someone would give up their kidney to save somebody else’s life. Like, there’s other questions that we’re trying to ask that are just as important, and I think we just need be very careful as Christians that we don’t fall into this like scientism view of like only science can ask and answer the questions that are important to us. It’s ridiculous. It answers some powerful, powerful questions. But there are some questions that science just cannot touch. That are so relevant to the human experience, and that’s where I would say. So just like when you’re looking in Genesis, have a bit of humility of understanding. This is, this is a complex book. This is a, there is poetry in there. There is different literary devices that if you just try to go in and be like, I’m a Christian, I have the Holy Spirit. So I’ll understand this perfectly. You’re going to miss some things. I think we actually have Christian history to show us the ways we’ve done this poorly. Right? We have the Copernican Revolution. We know what happened when the church was like, “No, this is what it’s saying.” It’s like, what actually the scripture really wasn’t saying that that was the way you were going about trying to interpret it.

00:26:42:23 – 00:26:51:21

Derek

Yeah, and yeah, that’s you have to kind of let it speak on its own and let it set the parameters of what the questions are and then understand the answers through that.

00:26:52:11 – 00:27:24:08

Alycia

Yeah. And just one quick thing, you know, before we finish out, it’s just we’ve talked about evolution. We talked about kind of young earth, but it is important for us to note that there is also other views than just what we talked about. And, you know, one of the other big prevalent views that is that, you know, days were longer periods of time than 24 hours in Genesis. And so they have an old earth view, but they don’t believe evolution was a means through which God created. So you’ve got different views out there. I want to make sure that I let people know that it isn’t just evolution or just six days, that there’s a variety of other views, yes, that we just didn’t discuss today.

00:27:24:09 – 00:27:24:15

Derek

Yeah.

00:27:24:20 – 00:27:48:20

Xandra

And the beautiful thing is that each of those views, those three main views and all the ones in between, they all say the same thing with regards to the very beginning of Genesis, which was in the beginning God, exactly not in the beginning random processes or in the beginning quantum vacuum or whatever. In the beginning, God. And I think that’s a beautiful thing and something important for us to remember.

00:27:49:02 – 00:28:00:14

Derek

And I haven’t met even an theistic evolution advocate yet that I couldn’t link arms with and recite the Nicene Creed together. So we need to kind of remember.

00:28:00:14 – 00:28:05:08

Lou

Is that your way of saying that you cannot be Orthodox and a theistic evolutionist?

00:28:06:15 – 00:28:08:00

Derek

Reciting the Nicene Creed?

00:28:08:03 – 00:28:08:18

Lou

No.

00:28:08:18 – 00:28:09:18

Derek

Do you understand history?

00:28:12:02 – 00:28:12:21

Lou

Never mind.

00:28:12:21 – 00:29:01:13

Derek

Good one, Lou. So we’re going to, we’re going to close it there. I just want to end with a, there is a quote I heard once from William Lane Craig talking about the anthropic cosmological principle. It’s a book. And he pointed out that those authors there actually said if evolution did indeed occur, then it would have had to have been a miracle. In other words, evolution is literally evidence for the existence of God. So even if it is true, and I just thought that was fascinating. So yeah, we just want to say we love our theistic evolution brothers and sisters, our young earth brothers and sisters, old Earth no evolution brothers and sisters, and other views, I’m sorry if I’ve left you out, but hey, I hope you had fun today. I know, I think we did, and we learned a lot today. So thanks, Xandra, for all that background info.

00:29:01:16 – 00:29:05:17

Lou

Derek, you didn’t even give me a shout out.

00:29:07:05 – 00:29:22:10

Derek

Yeah, thanks. If you want to comment below all that good stuff and if you want us to answer your questions on the show. Email us at wherewebegin@lightengroup.org. Yeah, thanks. We’ll see you next week.